Decarboxylization

[t-pain]

If THC effects is what a patient is after, decarboxylation is where its at. But if CBD's are the target, in raw form, marijuana leaves and buds are actually loaded with a non-psychoactive, antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, and anti-cancer nutrient compound known as cannabidiol (CBD).

since i am unfamiliar with the cbd stuff, i hope we can work together to get a scientific theory that we can both agree with.

 

 

everything i've read so far indicates that raw plants are full of THCA and CBDA.

heat, time and oxidization (drying) can turn CBDA/THCA to CBD/THC.

how much CBDA > CBD occurs in time and drying vs heating ? are there any lab reports?

 

 

http://leblanccne.com/decarboxylation/

 

 

there have been a few studies on CBD and THC wrt tumors and cancers.

have there been any studies or even anecdotal evidence of people using CBDA/THCA to deal with tumors and cancers?

 

 

i'm not calling into question how CBDA/THCA is useful. i would like additional information.

 

 

http://cannabischris.com/2012/10/decarboxylation-of-cannabis/

links to gw pharma's decarboxylation methods and information.

 

 

Creat-ing CBD and THC from raw plant matter involves a process

known as decarboxylation. When heated, raw CBD-Acid

decarboxylates into neutral CBD and raw THC-Acid becomes neutral

THC. But it takes twice as long (if not lon-ger) to decarboxylate CBD than THC.

 

theres some interesting stuff about thca and cbda

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W7N-4HH88S4-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1543721813&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ba0d9dc428a8d2e370200aa0cd614c7f&searchtype=a

"These results suggest that THCa and THC exert their immuno-modulating effects via different metabolic pathways."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20053780

Our results suggest that the addition of cannabidiol to Delta(9)-THC may improve the overall effectiveness of Delta(9)-THC in the treatment of glioblastoma in cancer patients.

 

heres a good paper to read about cbda. lots of references

http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/36/9/1917.full

In fresh plant material, most of CBD has been reported to exist as its acid form (Turner et al., 1980).

in the present study it was revealed that CBDA is a selective COX-2 inhibitor in vitro

Edited December 14, 2013 by t-pain

[trichcycler]

I think we're arriving quickly friend !

 

that's some awesome linkage you shared, thanks....I'll need to do some reading, several of those are new to me. thanks again.

I haven't studied really, but do get a solid effect with dried ingested cannabis buds, with no heating at all. some patients don't respond

to edible extract (here) unless its decarb'd. Mentioned before, a coffee pot with a spot of cream and some tea or even coffee in the percolator

will make the baddest azz drinkable med I've ever had, with some more adds it can be a replica of old world Bhang even, least that's what its called here at the dinner table. I never decarb'd it prior to percolating, but bet it would be "stronger" (whatever that means?)

It's a shame we don't have solid current information from our smarty labs yet, but its coming.

[imiubu]

You can find folks on youtube doing things stupidly, granted. Everything you can think of. I bet you can find one where someone pokes themselves in the eye with a fork.

 

On the other hand;

 

You can get a safe extractor that uses alcohol on eBay. You can even use it to purify your alcohol so you know it IS 100% alcohol before you use it. We all need to be safe. It's also important not to paint ourselves into a corner by using broad sweeping statements that would hurt a patients ability to do their own extraction at home. Alcohol is a 'safe use' extraction solvent if you do it correctly.

 

Thank you!

 

 

grassmatch, you are always expounding the need for people to follow the law and that

it is not difficult to do.  I agree.

I also agree with resto in the above statement and feel that you may want to give pause

to some things you post on other subjects for that ^^^^ very reason. 

Those kind of statements have come around and bitten us repeatedly.

just saying **shrugs**

[Hydraulic Jack]

^ I agree.....HJ

[+washtenaut]

I think the solvent issue is somewhat overblown.  It depends largely on how much oil you are taking and how regularly. 

 

My understanding is that naphtha does not accumulate in the tissues of the body if ingested in small amounts.  You don't accumulate the toxins with multiple doses over time, you excrete them.   

 

So, by ingesting a grain of rice dose of the 5% naphtha contaminated cannabis oil, you are ingesting 1/20th of 1/20th of a milliliter of naphtha.  This is .0025 of an ml, or 1/400th of an ml...or about 1/20th of a drop of naphtha.  I don't know this but suspect that professional painters must ingest at least that much every workday.  Come to think of it, painters can be a little strange at times.....lol.

 

Most patients don't have a lot of choices when acquiring cannabis oil.  They must weigh this potential harm of the residual solvent against the potential benefit of this crude medicine, consider their ailment,  and decide for themselves. 

 

 

[trichcycler]

I think I understand your concern, but you'll need to specific about "those types of posts"? 

I am sorry if someone represented poorly, and then someone else says it never happened, and then I show that it did. Ridiculous to caution the me for the posted proof you think ?  Perhaps caution may be in line with  those who use nasty chemicals to make their oil, and also those who say "it never happened"?

  Saying something "never" happens is ridiculous speculation, and invites correction. If the facts are scary, perhaps the assumptions should be considered ?  I very simply showed a poster that "never" is false. I saw less concern over the naptha use here than I do over it's mention posters use by me. I find that strange.

 

  for instance you could say" Don't tell GM that "nobody" uses naptha in their extractions, because, you know him, he might just show you that posters right here certainly do, and we don't want people know that now, do we? "

 

 

 Handling dynamite is a safe job also, "if done correctly".

 

 

 

grassmatch, you are always expounding the need for people to follow the law and that

it is not difficult to do.  I agree.

I also agree with resto in the above statement and feel that you may want to give pause

to some things you post on other subjects for that ^^^^ very reason. 

Those kind of statements have come around and bitten us repeatedly.

just saying **shrugs**

[trichcycler]

or maybe invest in a rotational evaporator for use with naptha and other fuel solvents. ? they are cheap considering safety measures.   We shouldn't even be talking about how to make unsafe oils just because safe ways are out of reach for some should we?   these a carcinogens we're talking about man, that's pretty serious stuff to be feeding patients with Crohns or cancer I'd say. but that's me.

I think the solvent issue is somewhat overblown.  It depends largely on how much oil you are taking and how regularly. 

 

My understanding is that naphtha does not accumulate in the tissues of the body if ingested in small amounts.  You don't accumulate the toxins with multiple doses over time, you excrete them.   

 

So, by ingesting a grain of rice dose of the 5% naphtha contaminated cannabis oil, you are ingesting 1/20th of 1/20th of a milliliter of naphtha.  This is .0025 of an ml, or 1/400th of an ml...or about 1/20th of a drop of naphtha.  I don't know this but suspect that professional painters must ingest at least that much every workday.  Come to think of it, painters can be a little strange at times.....lol.

 

Most patients don't have a lot of choices when acquiring cannabis oil.  They must weigh this potential harm of the residual solvent against the potential benefit of this crude medicine, consider their ailment,  and decide for themselves. 

[+washtenaut]

or maybe invest in a rotational evaporator for use with naptha and other fuel solvents. ? they are cheap considering safety measures.   We shouldn't even be talking about how to make unsafe oils just because safe ways are out of reach for some should we?   these a carcinogens we're talking about man, that's pretty serious stuff to be feeding patients with Crohns or cancer I'd say. but that's me.

 

Nobody is advocating for a less pure medicine.  I'm saying that time is up for many and crude cannabinoid medicine is all they have available.  It is either crude medicine and a chance or no medicine and no chance.  In their shoes, what would you decide?

 

Here's a rough analogy for you. 

 

Hypothetically, say you become stranded without safe drinking water.  Water is present but it appears impure. 

 

If there is no way to purify the water and after days pass, would you eventually drink the impure water or would you just die from thirst?

[trichcycler]

totally understood, thank you for the perspective. I would drink the impure water as well.

[Highlander]

Nobody is advocating for a less pure medicine.  I'm saying that time is up for many and crude cannabinoid medicine is all they have available.  It is either crude medicine and a chance or no medicine and no chance.  In their shoes, what would you decide?

 

Here's a rough analogy for you. 

 

Hypothetically, say you become stranded without safe drinking water.  Water is present but it appears impure. 

 

If there is no way to purify the water and after days pass, would you eventually drink the impure water or would you just die from thirst?

It is wise to consider that isopropyl alcohol is a medical product and, as such, you can expect that it is more or less free of impurities.  Naptha isn't a medical product, and so the folks who make it and package it kinduv expect that people are gonna use it to clean paint brushes.  It isn't packaged with the idea that someone might make a consumable food product with it.

[GrowGoddess]

I think the solvent issue is somewhat overblown.  It depends largely on how much oil you are taking and how regularly. 

 

My understanding is that naphtha does not accumulate in the tissues of the body if ingested in small amounts.  You don't accumulate the toxins with multiple doses over time, you excrete them.   

 

So, by ingesting a grain of rice dose of the 5% naphtha contaminated cannabis oil, you are ingesting 1/20th of 1/20th of a milliliter of naphtha.  This is .0025 of an ml, or 1/400th of an ml...or about 1/20th of a drop of naphtha.  I don't know this but suspect that professional painters must ingest at least that much every workday.  Come to think of it, painters can be a little strange at times.....lol.

 

Most patients don't have a lot of choices when acquiring cannabis oil.  They must weigh this potential harm of the residual solvent against the potential benefit of this crude medicine, consider their ailment,  and decide for themselves. 

 

I did too at first. I saw a chart that showed naphtha decarbing was not the best but it did extract the most THCa. Now that I have learned that the THCa on an extraction will slowly convert to THC naturally,.naphtha could potentially extract the most THC based upon any comparison chart I have seen. I have never used naphtha because I am not confident that I would get 100% pure naphtha. Even if the container said it was, the potential is there that more than just naphtha is in it. Either way, it does make me uncomfortable to use naphtha so I have been using 99% isopropyl alcohol.

 

I have been taking so much iso oil over the last three years, it has started to concern me. Keep in mind, I am not just ingesting the oil, I am also vaporizing it (constantly). It is starting to concern me. If you 100% fully purge your product to where you 100% know, you have probably caused great damage to the oil. Mostly THC degrading to CBN.

 

Since it concerns me, I decided to do something about it. Switching to grain or organic 190 proof or higher alcohol. Yes, a recovery distiller would be great. To be honest, I just don't have the funds to invest, nor the time to research the best. Research is very important. It could cause serious damage to the oil not being able to see it in a contained unit (comparing to using a rice cooker). Normally I would, but this year has been difficult financially. So there is a simple solution. Do the initial extraction with 99% isopropyl alcohol, a nice gentle purge, get the oil done to where you like it, referring to decarbing. After the oil is done, put it back into the purge pan and dilute it with 190 proof or higher grain alcohol. Re-purge it, just be extra gentle with the heat. That is more than safe enough for me to ingest and vaporize for the rest of my life.

 

These pictures do not apply to what I spoke above. This oil I recently made 100% organic. I used 190 Everclear with a frozen extraction. I used my darkest heaviest chlorophyll strain. I did three rinses. I did not really use any heat. The oil is not decarbed. It was only made for smoking or vaporizing. I only vaporize the oil. My point of posting this is that it is not decarbed and you can use it in an e-cigg vaporizer and that produces enough heat to decarb the THC and you can feel the effects, relief, buzz. RSO decarbed works just as good. They are definitely different from each other though. Different in the buzz and taste. Both are very good for vaporizing. The only chemical that has been added so it can be vaporized is PG USP medical/food grade. You can buy it here: http://highdesertvapes.com/products/USP-Kosher-Proplyene-Glycol-%28PG%29.html Just add a little bit to your concentrate with light heat to get them to infuse and you are good to go to vaporize in your favorite e-cigarette. I am puffing on my SVD vaporizer right now. http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/blog/532/entry-1026-my-experience-with-portable-vaporizers-pen-vaporizers-for-concentrated-cannabis-oil-and-e-cigarette-oil/#commentsStart

I just want people to know, make it yourself, it is so easy. I no longer smoke what so ever. I either let the vaporizer do the decarbing and enjoy the buzz instead of smoking a joint. Or I decarb the oil and ingest it and enjoy the buzz for many hours. Well, actually, I do both.

This is a QWISO style hash. I did customize it a little for my own experimental reasons. I must say the results are very impressive. It is so impressive I am considering spending $250-$500 on solvent to try out my next batch of RSO and have it all evaporate away using a rice cooker because I am so impressed with the QWISO style oil cam out using the 190 proof Everclear. I used my crappiest strain in the extraction. I will make some more QWISO soon and then I will decide if I will make my next RSO with grain or organic 190 proof or higher alcohol.

Happy oiling my friends!

 

God bless.

[Norby]

I'm thinking of getting a smartstill essential oil still.  Seems like the cost comes back in the first couple bottles of alcohol.  Other thing is you can turn 100 proof into 190 proof and don't have to worry about starting with everclear. 

[t-pain]

is there any stats of how long it takes cbda to turn into cbd without using heat?

obviously, vaping or smoking oil will decarboxilate it.

 

i'm curious what you guys do with the bud after its been alcohol washed and squeezed out?

theres still cannabinoids in there. i was thinking just letting it air dry to get rid of the alcohol ?

 

always try to use the most out of marihuana.

after vape'ing bud, you can cook with it or eat it. its still 'good'...

 

wheres the stats on using 99% iso versus 190 everclear for cannabinoid extraction from the same cannabis?

 

how does olive oil extraction stacks up against alcohol?

did anyone ever try pressure cooking olive oil extraction?

[Norby]

GrowGoddess, Thanks so much for the post on the other forum and the links provided.  I ordered the cup warmer and syringes and will start trying oils in Jan. I think I may try iso first since I don't have the smartstill yet but plan on getting it and the organic alcohol for future extractions.  Great pics of the animals too, reminds me of my place in NY.  Must've been a glorious day!

Best, Norby

 

Grassmatch, thanks a lot for all your links and posts.  Between the 2 of you I've gained a lot of edumacation on extraction and medibles.

 

Thanks to everyone else too for the info on decarbing, it's put a whole new level of medication in the medicine box.  A side effect of medibles is that my back pain is gone within 2 hours of eating or ingesting and it works great for my apatite.

[trichcycler]

I once dreamed of giving up vaping/smoking for a capsule dose, but I just couldn't get past the long term effects. I find an edible great to use a couple hours before bedtime, but the hangover sucks for me. I've settled on an 1/8th ounce of bud topped in the percolator with tea. my bud rests in cream until warm then added to the coffee pot and cycled. I get extreme pleasure from this, but only in the evening.  ON the other hand I have a patient who can eat  one gram of decarb'd extract daily and she's steady and wide awake and her symptoms are alleviated. I hope our future laws favor extractions for those who need this type of medicine.

[Norby]

I've cut down a lot on smoking with taking a capsule every nite.  I don't think I'd ever give it up though.  I like the difference in medical effects between the 2.  A bong hit always does best for quick apatite and calming the cramps but eating it has led to more stable relief, better sleep and an ability to drink coffee again.

[trichcycler]

I had to give up the coffee too, until I gave up the alcohol, then the coffee was awesome once again. I'd use the cannabis, even if it caused goiters and shin splints ! lol

[Dommaman]

While making the butter's, oil's, tincture's and such is not all that hard to do there is an art to it.  Yes, I totally agree with that.  I have been a chef for over 20 years, and working with cannabis in my recipes for the last 6 or so.  Here is the real test for those of you who think you know what you are doing....

 

Does anybody know the correct, yet easiest method of extraction to rid most of the T.H.C., while still keeping the C.B.D., C.B.N., and other such compounds so as to still get all the relief that the plant naturally produces, but not the "stoned" effect so it can be used during the day and at work and such.

 

What is your favorite delivery for this extraction too ???   

[t-pain]

@Dommaman, you can find some info on how to extract other cannabinoids from the gw pharma thesis.

http://www.gwpharm.com/publications-1.aspx

 

theres also some info in the gw pharma patents.

http://www.faqs.org/patents/assignee/gw-pharma-limited/

 

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110098348

 

"[0205] Additionally, by growing the plants under defined conditions e.g. reduced light intensity and/or for a shortened period, extracts with a higher purity of CBC content can be obtained (albeit at a reduced yield)."

 

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100119606

 In the case of "high THC" material it is preferred to use a lower temperature in order to avoid thermal oxidation of ?9-THC to CBN or thermal isomerisation of ?9-THC to ?8-THC.

 

so you can use thermal oxidation to convert thc to cbn.

[trichcycler]

if that happened to my stash, I'd start over.  I aim to preserve every last drop of goodness from my properly grown cannabis. Throughout my life I'd tried various samples that didn't get me "high" and considered them failures. The lack of thc to balance the remaining terpenes has caused me distress. Headaches, nausea, confusion, anxiety are some of the effects I experience when using "high cbd/low thc herbs now.

I've read reports of cannabinoid medicine(sans the thc) being discontinued for the "side effects" of suicidal thought, and the ones I mentioned above. Industrial hemp has little thc, and higher(than og kush) cbd, I don't know anyone that enjoys a hit of that weed. I'l leave the chemistry to the docs, and enjoy me some time tested THC, right this moment even.

bon appetite !

 

Does anybody know the correct, yet easiest method of extraction to rid most of the T.H.C., while still keeping the C.B.D., C.B.N., and other such compounds so as to still get all the relief that the plant naturally produces, but not the "stoned" effect so it can be used during the day  

 

 !

[I wood]

While making the butter's, oil's, tincture's and such is not all that hard to do there is an art to it.  Yes, I totally agree with that.  I have been a chef for over 20 years, and working with cannabis in my recipes for the last 6 or so.  Here is the real test for those of you who think you know what you are doing....

 

Does anybody know the correct, yet easiest method of extraction to rid most of the T.H.C., while still keeping the C.B.D., C.B.N., and other such compounds so as to still get all the relief that the plant naturally produces, but not the "stoned" effect so it can be used during the day and at work and such.

 

What is your favorite delivery for this extraction too ???   

 

Before high cbd strains were available in michigan, I made oil with bubble hash leftovers to provide a low thc oil for a patient. It did work but these days it would be way easier to just track down a more suitable strain to work with.

[Restorium2]

High CBD strains in Michigan are mostly hype for money. We used to call it ditch weed and we knew it was worthless medically for most all people. Watch out though, if you tell it like it is the sellers of the ditch weed will say, "You just want to get high".

 

Did they take the 'HIGH' out of Oxycotin? Nope, because it doesn't work then. They just tell you that you will get used to the 'High'. You will find that it's easier to get used to the side effect of the good medical cannabis than to keep trying to convince yourself the ditch weed is helping you at all. Some folks do very good with the placebo effect, even better when they pay more for the ditch weed.

[I wood]

High CBD strains in Michigan are mostly hype for money. We used to call it ditch weed and we knew it was worthless medically for most all people. Watch out though, if you tell it like it is the sellers of the ditch weed will say, "You just want to get high".

 

Did they take the 'HIGH' out of Oxycotin? Nope, because it doesn't work then. They just tell you that you will get used to the 'High'. You will find that it's easier to get used to the side effect of the good medical cannabis than to keep trying to convince yourself the ditch weed is helping you at all. Some folks do very good with the placebo effect, even better when they pay more for the ditch weed.

The high cbd strains, that work well for several patients, were given to me without me even asking. Free and useful.

Keep your junk science/ negative spew to yourself.

[t-pain]

wasnt it proven over and over again that it requires a mix of cannabinoids , the 'entourage effect' to make the chemicals work better as a medicine?

 

cbd reduces the thc effect and thc increases the cbd effects?

something like that?

[Restorium2]

Definitely, proven over and over every day.