An Offer .. A "olive Branch"

[peanutbutter]

I want to request declaratory judgement that states peanutbutters topical oil does not violate the Michigan or US controlled substance acts.

 

Rather than spend a massive amount of time trying to understand medical studies, I propose a demonstration. With the respective courts approval.

 

I'll limit the demonstration to two medical situations.

 

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

Nerve pain caused by an inflamed spinal disk.

 

This demonstration would be for any persons with those conditions that are employed within the courthouse building and members of the sheriff departments.

 

I propose to apply a olive oil that has some herbs dissolved in it, directly to the skin over the area. This oil has a slight trace of THC in it. This trace is screened out by the skin. Zero THC enters the bloodstream. There is zero possibility of a marijuana "high."

 

What I expect to see:

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome

I expect to see greater than 90% of these people to receive benefit.

I expect to see substantial reduction in pain in greater than 75% of those having the oil applied.

I expect to see complete elimination of pain in 50 to 60 percent of those having the oil applied. Some within thirty seconds.

 

Nerve pain from inflamed spinal disk.

This is a illustration of the anti inflammation actions of the oil. In this situation pain for many people turns off like a light switch. That takes about 45 minuets.

I expect to see reduction or elimination of such pain in greater than 75% of those trying the oil.

 

I hope to file these motions with every county in the state of Michigan.

 

Except for Oakland county. Until they stop this abuse of their courts against medical marijuana patients and stop all such abusive actions, I will withhold such actions there.

[peanutbutter]

I would ask the courts consider limiting the numbers of medical professionals are allowed to observe.

[TajMahal]

Interesting.

 

PB, you ever have anyone get relief for carpal tunnel? Never thought to try it on that.

 

Thanks

Taj

[peanutbutter]

Interesting.

 

PB, you ever have anyone get relief for carpal tunnel? Never thought to try it on that.

 

Thanks

Taj

 

Yes. Many people. That is what I do when I go to a gathering of patients and caregivers. That is, turn off as much pain and suffering at one location as possible.

 

These gatherings have a high concentration of suffering people.

 

So yes. It has been applied toward this condition many many times.

 

All of the responses from this are anecdotal at this time.

 

If I'm able to provide the demonstrations, I believe it would present the medical community a wonderful opportunity to observe.

[peanutbutter]

There are times when pain is turned off like someone turned off a switch. In a single instant.

 

Without producing any high at all.

[peanutbutter]

In the response form, that is on line now, that is for people with Crohn's, there is a field open for comments.

 

This comment was submitted today:

 

I have not had any bad acid I have two Alsers and have had NO systems since starting oil I have not been able to control the acid till now. Ok that\'s for taking it now for rub omg I am going in for surgery in July but I\'m doing lunges not with heavy weight but I couldnt even get out of a chair without looking like I was broken! I\'m telling u that I have no none zero pain in my knee, let\'s talk about arthritis I have it in my lower back getting worse, I\'m a landscaper and work had become a hardship but with the peanut oil I can work hours pain free! No doctor has even close to this!

[+Silverblue]

Hi Pb this is an interesting idea, I hope someone accepts your offer. Thanks for all you do. Thanks for trying to help me Sat. nite, everything worked out.

 

Sincerely, Sb

[peanutbutter]

A second request for declaratory judgement would be asked for at the same time.

 

That the procedure, known as the Rick Simpson procedure, conforms to the medical marijuana act.

 

First it is clearly medical purpose to attempt to use this material to save a life.

Second this clearly represents a reasonable point where a patient might have more than one pound with them.

 

One pound, one patient, one treatment program over 30 to 90 days.

[CedarSpringsCG]

I think the problem is the THC content in it. Any trace amounts of thc in it makes it a controlled substance. As far as no THC enters the bloodstream? Have you had someone's blood tested a few hours after rubbing on their skin? Lots of stuff gets absorbed through the skin, and I think anyone who has spent 2 hours trimming sticky meds would attest that some of it gets through.

 

Even if there is no "high" from it, I know lots of people who don't get high from smoking a joint, does that mean they didn't ingest THC? No. I am not trying to be negatively argumentative, I am looking at it from a anti-mmj person's point of view. Any trace amount of THC in the oil that they can test for, the AG can say you are attempting to give non-patients a controlled substance, and it could paint us in a bad light, like we all want to pass the joint around to non-patients.

 

PB, I wish you luck on this endeavor, and hope someone takes you up on it. It could really change some people's minds about the effectiveness of MMJ.

[peanutbutter]

I think the problem is the THC content in it. Any trace amounts of thc in it makes it a controlled substance. As far as no THC enters the bloodstream? Have you had someone's blood tested a few hours after rubbing on their skin? Lots of stuff gets absorbed through the skin, and I think anyone who has spent 2 hours trimming sticky meds would attest that some of it gets through.

 

Even if there is no "high" from it, I know lots of people who don't get high from smoking a joint, does that mean they didn't ingest THC? No. I am not trying to be negatively argumentative, I am looking at it from a anti-mmj person's point of view. Any trace amount of THC in the oil that they can test for, the AG can say you are attempting to give non-patients a controlled substance, and it could paint us in a bad light, like we all want to pass the joint around to non-patients.

 

PB, I wish you luck on this endeavor, and hope someone takes you up on it. It could really change some people's minds about the effectiveness of MMJ.

 

A patient with fibromyalgia applied the oil to an area about four inches wide from the top to bottom of the spine. This was repeated two or three times per day for thirty days. Her urine tested clean after this thirty day exposure.

[CedarSpringsCG]

A patient with fibromyalgia applied the oil to an area about four inches wide from the top to bottom of the spine. This was repeated two or three times per day for thirty days. Her urine tested clean after this thirty day exposure.

OK, that's good to know. However urine tests have lower limits that have to be reached to be dirty. Was this an at home test or a lab test? Lab tests are much more decisive, and normally still show clean for trace amounts.

 

I'd still watch out for it being a controlled substance since the product itself has THC in it. For instance it is still illegal to give a person under 21 a bottle of jack daniels even if the instructions say to only apply it topically and even if this person only does apply it topically.

[peanutbutter]

OK, that's good to know. However urine tests have lower limits that have to be reached to be dirty. Was this an at home test or a lab test? Lab tests are much more decisive, and normally still show clean for trace amounts.

 

I'd still watch out for it being a controlled substance since the product itself has THC in it. For instance it is still illegal to give a person under 21 a bottle of jack daniels even if the instructions say to only apply it topically and even if this person only does apply it topically.

 

Jack Daniels can be used for recreational purposes.

 

The topical oil can not be used for recreational purposes.

[CedarSpringsCG]

Jack Daniels can be used for recreational purposes.

 

The topical oil can not be used for recreational purposes.

I think your missing the point. If it has THC in it, it is a controlled substance. 1/10 milligram of cocaine isn't enough to get anyone high, but if you give it to someone, you have just transferred a controlled substance. If you have something with any trace amounts of THC in it, then it is controlled and can only be used on MMJ patients legally. Our law only protects you if you are assisting a patient with use of THC, it doesn't matter if that use is topical, smoking, rubbing it on the inside of their shoes, you are only protected helping a patient.

 

If you can use this oil on non-mmj patients, why couldn't I mix up a batch of brownies with 1/4 gram and let people eat it... There isn't enough thc in it to make you high and most people wouldn't pee dirty from it, but I guarantee a judge would say I was dispensing MMJ to non-patients.

 

Also, another law you would run into, is that you would have to disclose that this oil has THC in it, otherwise you are giving a controlled substance to a person without their knowledge, and even if it isn't in their blood stream from your test, doesn't mean it won't enter in them, and ANY trace amounts can get you landed in jail for tricking someone into ingesting a controlled substance if you do not disclose that it has MJ in it. I can't recall what it is called, but it is the same as if some guy drops a roofie into someone drink and then doesn't do anything to them. There was a recent case on this where people were dropping roofies into drinks and then leaving the bar before the person even felt it. I think they landed several years in a federal jail.

 

You yourself said it has THC in it... To a judge that means it has recreational use. I think you would only be safe if you used it on mmj patients.

 

Take it or leave it, that's my advice, and I am just saying this to help protect you. As long as the MMMA isn't backing you on this, I doubt it will harm us much if you go to jail for a while. Sucks for your patients though.

 

Have you asked an attorney if they think you are safe applying mmj infused oil on non-patients in front of a LEO? I would love to hear what they say.

[peanutbutter]

I think your missing the point. If it has THC in it, it is a controlled substance. 1/10 milligram of cocaine isn't enough to get anyone high, but if you give it to someone, you have just transferred a controlled substance. If you have something with any trace amounts of THC in it, then it is controlled and can only be used on MMJ patients legally. Our law only protects you if you are assisting a patient with use of THC, it doesn't matter if that use is topical, smoking, rubbing it on the inside of their shoes, you are only protected helping a patient.

 

If you can use this oil on non-mmj patients, why couldn't I mix up a batch of brownies with 1/4 gram and let people eat it... There isn't enough thc in it to make you high and most people wouldn't pee dirty from it, but I guarantee a judge would say I was dispensing MMJ to non-patients.

 

Also, another law you would run into, is that you would have to disclose that this oil has THC in it, otherwise you are giving a controlled substance to a person without their knowledge, and even if it isn't in their blood stream from your test, doesn't mean it won't enter in them, and ANY trace amounts can get you landed in jail for tricking someone into ingesting a controlled substance if you do not disclose that it has MJ in it. I can't recall what it is called, but it is the same as if some guy drops a roofie into someone drink and then doesn't do anything to them. There was a recent case on this where people were dropping roofies into drinks and then leaving the bar before the person even felt it. I think they landed several years in a federal jail.

 

You yourself said it has THC in it... To a judge that means it has recreational use. I think you would only be safe if you used it on mmj patients.

 

Take it or leave it, that's my advice, and I am just saying this to help protect you. As long as the MMMA isn't backing you on this, I doubt it will harm us much if you go to jail for a while. Sucks for your patients though.

 

Have you asked an attorney if they think you are safe applying mmj infused oil on non-patients in front of a LEO? I would love to hear what they say.

 

No .. I think I do understand your point.

 

Look here. See how many products that can be purchased legally on ebay that have hemp in them?

 

There is a limit of content to classify a strain of Cannabis Sativa L as either marijuana or hemp.

The UN has defined hemp as a strain having less than 0.1 percent THC.

 

Nearly all of the products of hemp listed for sale on ebay would have a few molecules of THC in them.

Ebay search for hemp click here.

 

Supreme courts of both the state of Michigan and the United States have ruled on the side of the likelihood for someone to use the product to produce a marijuana high. This oil would fit that yardstick.

[CedarSpringsCG]

No .. I think I do understand your point.

 

Look here. See how many products that can be purchased legally on ebay that have hemp in them?

 

There is a limit of content to classify a strain of Cannabis Sativa L as either marijuana or hemp.

The UN has defined hemp as a strain having less than 0.1 percent THC.

 

Nearly all of the products of hemp listed for sale on ebay would have a few molecules of THC in them.

Ebay search for hemp click here.

 

Supreme courts of both the state of Michigan and the United States have ruled on the side of the likelihood for someone to use the product to produce a marijuana high. This oil would fit that yardstick.

Well, most of the ebay items are clothes made from industrial hemp fiber, not THC ridden trichomes. The oils and what not on there are mostly made with Hemp seed oil, which is not known to carry much THC at all. Also, these products are imported because last I checked, industrial hemp, or Cannabis Ruderalis, was still illegal to grow in the US.

 

The issue is however, Do you only use Cannabis Ruderalis to make your Oil? Or do you use an Indica or Sativa? Just because the end product is low in THC (have you had it tested to see if it has less than 0.1%?) doesn't mean it wasn't made with Marijuana.

 

It isn't a risk I would take.

 

The problem I see is that our law, the MMMA2008, allows us to grow, and use medical marijuana for patients. Not to dole it out to random people on the street. How fast do you think the DEA would be at your door if you listed the PB oil on Ebay saying "Made with real marijuana, but the end product has so little in it, that it won't get you high!".

 

Your argument of hemp vs MJ isn't a good one because the 0.1% is on the plant, not the end product. Made with Hemp is different than Made with Marijuana. And unless you have had it tested for THC content, that is a huge risk you are taking.

 

For instance, I can't take my vicodin perscription down to the courthouse, crush it up into a powder, mix it with oil and rub it on people even though they won't even get an effect from it. I view this as the same thing.

 

That's basically what you are doing, you are walking into a lions den covered in t-bone steaks. I wish you Luck PB, I really do as I see this can open some eyes and possibly get more people on our side. However you do so much for the community that I would hate to have you jailed over a demonstration because you are doing something a lot of people would feel is illegal, especially our own AG, Governor, and lots of PA's, as well as lots of parents. I could see a PA saying to let you do it just so they can arrest you when you show up and apply it to the first person.

 

Peace

Cedar

[peanutbutter]

Well, most of the ebay items are clothes made from industrial hemp fiber, not THC ridden trichomes. The oils and what not on there are mostly made with Hemp seed oil, which is not known to carry much THC at all. Also, these products are imported because last I checked, industrial hemp, or Cannabis Ruderalis, was still illegal to grow in the US.

 

The issue is however, Do you only use Cannabis Ruderalis to make your Oil? Or do you use an Indica or Sativa? Just because the end product is low in THC (have you had it tested to see if it has less than 0.1%?) doesn't mean it wasn't made with Marijuana.

 

It isn't a risk I would take.

 

The problem I see is that our law, the MMMA2008, allows us to grow, and use medical marijuana for patients. Not to dole it out to random people on the street. How fast do you think the DEA would be at your door if you listed the PB oil on Ebay saying "Made with real marijuana, but the end product has so little in it, that it won't get you high!".

 

Your argument of hemp vs MJ isn't a good one because the 0.1% is on the plant, not the end product. Made with Hemp is different than Made with Marijuana. And unless you have had it tested for THC content, that is a huge risk you are taking.

 

For instance, I can't take my vicodin perscription down to the courthouse, crush it up into a powder, mix it with oil and rub it on people even though they won't even get an effect from it. I view this as the same thing.

 

That's basically what you are doing, you are walking into a lions den covered in t-bone steaks. I wish you Luck PB, I really do as I see this can open some eyes and possibly get more people on our side. However you do so much for the community that I would hate to have you jailed over a demonstration because you are doing something a lot of people would feel is illegal, especially our own AG, Governor, and lots of PA's, as well as lots of parents. I could see a PA saying to let you do it just so they can arrest you when you show up and apply it to the first person.

 

Peace

Cedar

 

Only a trace of THC and still considered legal.

 

I wish I could work with hemp flowers only. That way the question would be less important.

 

in case you didn't notice, it's hard to find hemp flowers to work with

But it's easy to find cannabis flowers to work with.

 

So with cannabis flowers, I destroy cannabis when this oil is infused. In order to "activate" the oil a quarter oz of marijuana, is destroyed. Any possibility of that quarter oz being used to produce a high is gone forever.

 

Is it OK to destroy cannabis?

[CedarSpringsCG]

When I make simpson oil, I destroy 5 oz of cannabis at a time.

 

However my oil will get you high as a kite. The waste material is now all used up, but the oil is now the controlled substance. and if I put 1 gram of it into brownies, and fed those brownies to random people on the street, I would be in violation of the MMMA2008.

 

Anyway, you and I don't agree on this. All I can do is say good luck and be careful. make sure you have the backing of a lawyer before you do this, as I don't see how you could get out of it without getting arrested. There always have to be test cases, and if you want to volunteer to be a test case,

 

Cedar

[Beartek2]

Sorry if this is a stuipid question but do you mean hemp flowers as in flowers from the ruderalis plants? If so why is it so hard to come by?

[CedarSpringsCG]

Ruderalis is illegal in the states, just as every other cannabis plant, however Sativa and Indica were so widely collected because of the illegal trade, that they were easily obtained when the law went into effect. There are places all over where you can buy seeds online for Sativa and Indica, but none of the seed banks carry Ruderalis.

[Highlander]

I want to request declaratory judgement that states peanutbutters topical oil does not violate the Michigan or US controlled substance acts.

 

Rather than spend a massive amount of time trying to understand medical studies, I propose a demonstration. With the respective courts approval.

 

I'll limit the demonstration to two medical situations.

 

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

Nerve pain caused by an inflamed spinal disk.

 

This demonstration would be for any persons with those conditions that are employed within the courthouse building and members of the sheriff departments.

 

I propose to apply a olive oil that has some herbs dissolved in it, directly to the skin over the area. This oil has a slight trace of THC in it. This trace is screened out by the skin. Zero THC enters the bloodstream. There is zero possibility of a marijuana "high."

 

What I expect to see:

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome

I expect to see greater than 90% of these people to receive benefit.

I expect to see substantial reduction in pain in greater than 75% of those having the oil applied.

I expect to see complete elimination of pain in 50 to 60 percent of those having the oil applied. Some within thirty seconds.

 

Nerve pain from inflamed spinal disk.

This is a illustration of the anti inflammation actions of the oil. In this situation pain for many people turns off like a light switch. That takes about 45 minuets.

I expect to see reduction or elimination of such pain in greater than 75% of those trying the oil.

 

I hope to file these motions with every county in the state of Michigan.

 

Except for Oakland county. Until they stop this abuse of their courts against medical marijuana patients and stop all such abusive actions, I will withhold such actions there.

 

I'm all for making natural remedies safely available to the masses, but I think you ought to rethink the red tape aspect of this effort. You are contemplating asking courts to conduct proceedings in an unconventional fashion that eliminates the separation of powers our freedoms are founded on. This would amount to an illegal proceeding and a judgment without merit. Our courts operate in an adversarial way. This means that one party must file an action against another party. One can’t simply ask a judge to consider some arguments and declare something legal. You are essentially asking a judge to legislate from the bench, to pass a new law that protects your product specifically. Also, asking a circuit court to rule on the federal CSA won't and can't happen. The state courts can't rewrite any law - let alone a federal law.

 

Our government doesn’t work that way. It sounds good and would make a good Disney movie – curing the ailments of the employees of the court, resulting in a pain free party for all and a celebration of god’s herbal gifts to man, but the system doesn't work that way.

 

We expect judges to rule on the law as it exists, and make proper interpretations to establish case law when necessary. We expect them not to make laws, not to waive the applicability of laws….Your request that a judge somehow make it legal for anybody to get PB oil with less than .1% THC in it isn’t any different than Jessica Cooper asking the same judge to declare that any product with greater than 50% THC is illegal. You are asking a judge to ignore the law and make a ruling that “OK, well a tiny bit of THC is OK.” Judges can’t do that. Our AG could issue a statement – that any product containing less than .1% THC by mass shall not constitute a Sch 1 controlled substance. I believe the AG can do this. The AG’s written opinion would have the force of law. Even if a circuit court judge went crazy and issued such a ruling, it would not be binding on anybody. And as soon as a PA filed a case against a party for possession/use of the oil, he would also request that the case be heard by a judge who had not already declared his bias and unwillingness to follow the law. The judicial system is a two-way street; we can't ask them to bend the rules for us, and neither can the other side. It works pretty well that way.

 

I like your idea, but I think your approach is better with the legislature – get some lawmakers to see some benefit from this oil, then ask them to ask the AG's office to issue an opinion. This would be a lot easier and far more effective that trying to hit the courts in 80+ counties. Good luck.

[peanutbutter]

Without merit .. odd.

 

Do people benefit from the oil? Clearly. Is that not a merit?

 

Obviously this can be used by those that have ID cards. Since there is no possibility of any high, why should non-patients be required to not use the product?

 

There are conditions such as MRSA or open diabetic sores that this oil seems to be able to address.

 

In the case of MRSA waiting for a ID card may mean dying. Merit???

[Highlander]

Without merit .. odd.

 

Do people benefit from the oil? Clearly. Is that not a merit?

 

Obviously this can be used by those that have ID cards. Since there is no possibility of any high, why should non-patients be required to not use the product?

 

There are conditions such as MRSA or open diabetic sores that this oil seems to be able to address.

 

In the case of MRSA waiting for a ID card may mean dying. Merit???

 

I didn't suggest the oil was without merit. I have no idea about that. I've tried it; I know several patients who have tried it. Results are not relevant to this discussion.

 

You are trying to fit a legal square peg into a round hole. It won't fit. Our system doesn't work that way. Judges try cases. They examine evidence on both side and make a ruling. You are discussing some bizarre court proceeding where only one side presents arguements, and there isn't an opposing case to present. There is no way this fits into our legal system. Our democracy prevents judges from hearing and then ruling on one-sided cases. There is no way a judge can set aside a law that says "all THC is illegal" and say "well OK just a wee bit of THC is OK." This is the very definition of anarchy and they very thing we oppose. We can't say it is OK for a judge to break the law so long as he does it in a way that helps a specific group of people. You say "it won't get people high, so the law shouldn't apply." Maybe that is the case, but one would need to rewrite the law then, right? Otherwise we have judges who are making rulings contrary to law.

 

I stated that if a circuit court in Michigan ruled that PB's topical oil is not regulated under state or FEDERAL CSA, that ruling would be without merit. I stand by my position that #1) No court in MI would even hear you, let alone rule, let alone rule the way you hope and #2)Even if a court did rule on this, the ruling would be completely outside "the system" and would never stand.

 

I guess you had three choices to my input. #1) ignore it. #2) consider the possability that NOT trying to run this trough the courts is a better idea and actually amounts to good advice, or #3) accuse me of saying your oil has no merit when what I said was that a Michigan judge ruling (among other things) that a federal law can't be enforced, even though it clearly applies, would be a ruling without merit.

 

So are you suggesting that a circuit court judge can rule that federal CSA doesn't apply to PB's oil?

 

I'm disappointed that you chose #3 and that you fail to see that I was trying to steer you in a more effective direction.

[peanutbutter]

Highlander

 

Courts have already ruled on the topic of just a wee bit of THC.

 

Supreme courts of Michigan AND the United States.

 

The issue was with enough merit to get to both of those courts.

[peanutbutter]

Intent was one of the main topics before both courts.

 

Was the intent of the item to cause a recreational high?

 

When the answer is no, the judges got angry and wanted to know why the DEA was wasting court docket time.

[Highlander]

Intent was one of the main topics before both courts.

 

Was the intent of the item to cause a recreational high?

 

When the answer is no, the judges got angry and wanted to know why the DEA was wasting court docket time.

 

Ok so that gives you great ammo to take to the AG. That is where this goes. The courts(s), and there are many, can't do what you ask of them. Certainly not all 83 over even close to that will get on board, even if they could. And we still haven't touched the feds. The only remedy you'll find in the courts is if you got charged with a CSA violation, lost your case at trial (somehow in state and federal court both), then appealed your case at the federal and state level and then won both appeals. You will not accomplish your objective in the courtroom. I'm not being a naysayer; I'm being a realist.

 

Show Bill S that PB oil has medical benefit without recreational high. Cite cases where the courts have agreed that low % THC isn't regulated. Ask for the AG's opinion that herbal preparations containing <x% THC are not regulated under CSA. If you have a handfull of legislators who will speak to the benefits of PB oil, along with a collection of case studies, maybe he will be compelled. Does he have a grandma with RA or Crohns or something? Maybe you find a state senator with a similar condition.

 

I think you see me as trashing your idea rather than trying to improve on it. You seem to think that I'm being adversarial by tossing in a dose of reality. I really don't see the benefit of you dragging yourself through the stressful 'test case' process when a better approach is available.