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No More Ccw/cpl For Mmm Card Holders!?!


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#1 Gates

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:40 PM

I took my CPL (permit to carry a concealed pistol)class yesterday, 6-26-11, and the instructor, Mark Cortis- (248) 506-3472, said he went to a seminar in May and that's the new rule. The seminar was given by: James Tieman- Firearms Training Consultant- Michigan State Police, (734) 395-0199, NICSMI@aol.com. A member from another forum site spoke with Mr. Tieman this morning and He stated that you CAN NOT have a CPL and a MMMP card. A CPL is federally licensed and once the board finds out you have your card they consider you a "drug addict", his (Mr. Tieman) words, and they will revoke your CPL. I intend to contact Mr. Tieman myself to confirm this, but wanted to get others opinions/thoughts/knowledge first.

Has anyone else heard that if you have your MMM patient card that you can no longer get a CPL / CCW licence as of April 2011? If so, does that include caregivers? What's ur thoughts on being a patient and now being removed from eligibility to conceal carry a pistol in Michigan? Also, if this is true, how can we fight this? Another member suggested HIPAA, but HIPAA is also a federal program and I would think it would also have to follow federal law?

#2 LongHairBri

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 01:10 PM

a friend of mine is a ccw INSTRUCTOR and a patient/caregiver. never had a problem. I think it falls under "don't ask, don't tell"

#3 CedarSpringsCG

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 01:29 PM

A member from another forum site spoke with Mr. Tieman this morning and He stated that you CAN NOT have a CPL and a MMMP card. A CPL is federally licensed and once the board finds out you have your card they consider you a "drug addict", his (Mr. Tieman) words,

Precisely... Once the board finds out. And how are they going to do that? It isn't like they send the database over to the ATF for comparison.

The question comes into play when on the form it asks if you are an illicit drug user (paraphrased)... State law says no you are not, Federal Law says you are. Which one do you answer under? Then it gets constitutional when you consider does the Federal Government really have the right to regulate MMJ? If they don't, then their law is invalid and you can answer no.

Cedar

#4 Highlander

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:03 PM

This is silly. I hate when people say, "If you have your MJ card you can't _____________"

Having a MMJ card is legal under state law and federal law. There is no federal law that forbids a person to register as a marijuana user.

The very important distinction here is that many people like to equate the ability to use or possess marijuana with actually possessing or using.

Saying "You can't grow marijuana and have a CPL" is a very different statement than "You can't have an MMJ card and have a CPL."

#5 EdwardGlen

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:38 PM

I'm patient I have a CPL and I open carry also. I also know several caregivers (5) who have a CPL two before they got their card and three after.

I will not give up anymore of my rights...


Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.

- Thomas Jefferson

#6 Kingdiamond

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 03:37 PM

This is currently being discussed in the colorado courts . :mellow:

http://www.kval.com/...l/69244857.html

But im sure the pillheads are just fine to carry a gun as long as their doctor is their connection right? :notfair:

This countrys political infrastrucure makes me sick. :growl:

#7 CherryCrush

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:44 PM

http://www.mlive.com...ey_a_day_i.html



GENESEE COUNTY, Michigan — For Kurt Weiss, it all came down to one vote.
If Genesee County Assistant Prosecutor Tim Cassady voted yes, Weiss got to keep his concealed pistol license. If it was a no, then the Flint man had a tough choice to make:
Give up his license to carry a concealed weapon or forfeit his medical marijuana card.


Weiss, 36, was ticketed in September for failing to tell a police officer he had his gun on him. To have his license reinstated after a six-month suspension, he was called into a recent meeting of the county’s concealed weapon licensing board.
His is just one of 200 licenses that members of the Genesee County gun board had before them to review at a recent meeting.

The board is one of the busiest in the state, meeting twice per month in a clerk’s office conference room — but rarely does anyone from the public take notice.
In counties across the state, gun boards are tasked with carrying out the state law. They depend on a process of record keeping that is filled with spotty reporting and lax oversight, a Booth Michigan investigation found.
For example, boards across the state regularly neglect to file required year-end reports to the state — including Genesee County last year.

Their job is not easy.

The law thrusts a hefty workload on local boards with limited resources. Counties collect $41 of the $105 application fee.
“My personal opinion is that the county doesn’t get a fair share of that fee considering that all the record keeping is done here,” said Doreen Fulcher, elections supervisor at the clerk’s office. “In the month of March 2011, we processed almost 600 applications. And we have a staff of four.”

The county has nearly 14,000 people approved to carry concealed weapons — trailing only Macomb, Oakland and Wayne counties, the Booth investigation found.
The gun board includes a group of officials representing the sheriff, prosecutor, county clerk and state police. It meets twice a month to approve, deny, revoke or suspend licenses to carry a concealed weapon, called CCWs for short.
When board members aren’t meeting with license holders or applicants, they go through applications and renewals — pre-reviewed by the clerk’s representative — with an assembly line precision.
Unlike some counties, Genesee’s clerk, prosecutor and sheriff send representatives to the meeting rather than appearing themselves.
Genesee County Sheriff’s Capt. Chris Swanson and Michigan State Police Sgt. Jeff Bauermeister regularly look to Cassady for questions about laws and violations.
The pounding of rubber stamps on paper sets the tempo in the room like a metronome.

“I need to get new ink,” Swanson says at one point.
Deputy Clerk Cathy Cole represents the clerk’s office, which doesn’t vote but handles the bulk of paperwork and clerical duties.
Gun boards across the state tend to have their own style. For example, some make all applicants show up in person. In Genesee County, the board calls applicants in for unusual or contentious cases — like Weiss’s.

If the Genesee County board was ever a stiff, formal affair, those conventions were abandoned long ago.
“Why would a guy born in 1922 want a CCW?” Bauermeister says of one application. “Where’s he gonna go?”
Typically only a handful of current or aspiring CCW holders appear in person each month. Weiss was one of four at the April meeting.
The board denied the woman and man with convictions, but approved the man whose brother raised concerns.
“I don’t find anything (that merits a revocation),” Swanson said, before turning to question the applicant.
“Why do you want a CCW, sir?” Swanson asked.
“Self protection,” he responded.
“Can’t disagree with that,” Swanson said.

Weiss’s case would normally be a run-of-the-mill suspension for the board. Then the medical marijuana issue came to light and behooved the board to take a stand.

Genesee County Sheriff’s Capt. Chris Swanson voted yes. Michigan State Police Sgt. Jeff Bauermeister voted no, based on advice from MSP’s legal council.

With their split vote, the decision on whether Weiss’s license should be reinstated was left up to Cassady.
Cassady told Weiss he’s checked with the U.S. Attorney’s office, which assures him they have no intention of prosecuting against CCW holders violating federal law by following the medical marijuana law Michigan voters passed in 2008.
“So based upon that, since you’re in compliance with state law ... it’s the position of the prosecutor to vote yes,” Cassady said.
Weiss breathed a sigh of relief. He didn’t expect things to work out in his favor.
“I was a little caught off-guard by your decision,” he said. “So thank you.”
It was all in a day’s work for the county’s gun board.

#8 KusarigamaRogue

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 06:02 PM


Weiss, 36, was ticketed in September for failing to tell a police officer he had his gun on him.


2 comments:

1.) Don't get over-medicated to the point you forget the #1 rule repeated throughout every CPL class. I inform officers of my pocket knife ASAP. Don't want to give them any reason to shoot me in the back like they did to Oscar Grant.

2.) This is a reinstatment hearing, MMJ should never have been brought up as a person's medical care is private. MMJ does not prevent you from obtaining the license. On the purchase form for a firearm it asks is you are a user of ilegal drugs. The answer should be plain.

#9 CherryCrush

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 06:08 PM

If anyone gets denied a CPL because of the MMMAct, please contact myself either by private message here or at malamutex@hotmail.com

Cannabis Patients United is pursuing this issue and we are willing to do so for you.

Thank you.

#10 420Atheist

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 06:14 PM

Has anyone else heard that if you have your MMM patient card that you can no longer get a CPL / CCW licence as of April 2011? If so, does that include caregivers? What's ur thoughts on being a patient and now being removed from eligibility to conceal carry a pistol in Michigan? Also, if this is true, how can we fight this? Another member suggested HIPAA, but HIPAA is also a federal program and I would think it would also have to follow federal law?


He is full of BS. As of this date there is no access to the MMM database by LEO or the CPL licensing board. The CPL is NOT a federal law it is state by state. The licensing boards are county by county and usually are a local PA and State Police representative.

Now this may change if the bill gets passed that allows LEO access to the database. I can see a Jones being willing to give up our rights for us.

#11 CherryCrush

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 06:31 PM

LEO has access to the database via the LEIN system.



http://cannabispatie.../documents/lein

#12 Kingdiamond

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:29 PM

LEO has access to the database via the LEIN system.



http://cannabispatie.../documents/lein

This is true but unless they have your registration number they cannot find you or your grow this is for in case a raid is underway and the suspects provide officers with their patient/caregivers cards they then run your id # through the lien system.

As far as randomly punching in numbers to get someones id # would come out in a court case any good lawyer would request the lein info searches for that department through foia and they would be in violation of federal law they know that as well as the attorneys.

#13 ChronicReLeafCert

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:48 PM

333.26424(a) states

A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be
subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not
limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or
bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act...


A co-worker who's CPL has been suspended by such a Board until the conclusion of a DUI proceeding (has not been found guilty of any crime, just accused) just got car-jacked last night. Gun was at home, in accordance with the law. Man could have gotten killed.

OBEY

#14 Gates

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:01 PM

This is true but unless they have your registration number they cannot find you or your grow this is for in case a raid is underway and the suspects provide officers with their patient/caregivers cards they then run your id # through the lien system.

As far as randomly punching in numbers to get someones id # would come out in a court case any good lawyer would request the lein info searches for that department through foia and they would be in violation of federal law they know that as well as the attorneys.



#15 Gates

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:16 PM

They wouldn't need to do it randomly. When you sign the CPL application there is section for "agreement and certification". In this section, by signing the application, you "give authority to the concealed weapon licensing board to access any record, including medical and mental health records, pertaining to my qualifications to receive a concealed pistol license.". Section "B" of the listed qualifications is the "Federal Requirements". Line 3 in this section says, "not to be an unlawful user of, or addicted to, any controlled substance". Like it or not, on the federal level patients are "unlawful users".

And yes iv read "A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be
subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not
limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or
bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act..."

This leaves more questions than answers. On a state level yes this would clear all card holders, however, federal law always trumps state law. As the section on the CPL form is listed as a federal section, can this protect us??

#16 Poppa Puff

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:34 PM

Just my 2 cents worth , probably the County you live in has a bit to do with it. In Oakland County your a criminal no mater what but north of the big Mac bridge guns are just part of daily life. Personally I think we should be able to have both, MMJ card and CPL license. PP

#17 Gates

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:16 PM

Just my 2 cents worth , probably the County you live in has a bit to do with it. In Oakland County your a criminal no mater what but north of the big Mac bridge guns are just part of daily life. Personally I think we should be able to have both, MMJ card and CPL license. PP



#18 Gates

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:17 PM

Haha poppa puff, u do have a point there, Oakland co is far more aggressive than most

#19 Hempcheff

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:09 AM

Cassady told Weiss he’s checked with the U.S. Attorney’s office, which assures him they have no intention of prosecuting against CCW holders violating federal law by following the medical marijuana law Michigan voters passed in 2008.

“So based upon that, since you’re in compliance with state law ... it’s the position of the prosecutor to vote yes,” Cassady said.




in reference to a cpl...




http://www.mlive.com...ey_a_day_i.html




#20 Zerocool

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:04 AM

Cynthia Willis shows off her Walther P-22 pistol March 25, 2011 at a firing range in White City, Ore. Willis is suing the Jackson County sheriff to get her concealed handgun permit back after being denied for having a medical marijuana card. / AP photo











WHITE CITY, Ore. (AP) — Cynthia Willis calls up and down the firing range to be sure everyone knows she is shooting, squares up in a two-handed stance with her Walther P-22 automatic pistol and fires off a clip in rapid succession.

Willis is not only packing a concealed handgun permit in her wallet, she also has a medical marijuana card. That combination has led the local sheriff to try to take her gun permit away.

She is part of what is considered the first major court case in the country to consider whether guns and marijuana can legally mix. The sheriffs of Washington and Jackson counties say no. But Willis and three co-plaintiffs have won in state court twice, with the state's rights to regulate concealed weapons trumping federal gun control law in each decision.

With briefs filed and arguments made, they are now waiting for the Oregon Supreme Court to rule.

When it's over, the diminutive 54-year-old plans to still be eating marijuana cookies to deal with her arthritis pain and muscle spasms, and carrying her pistol.

"Under the medical marijuana law, I am supposed to be treated as any other citizen in this state," she said. "If people don't stand up for their little rights, all their big rights will be gone."

A retired school bus driver, Willis volunteers at a Medford smoke shop that helps medical marijuana patients find growers, and teaches how to get the most medical benefit out of the pound-and-a-half of pot that card carriers are allowed to possess. She believes that her marijuana oils, cookies and joints should be treated no differently than any other prescribed medicines. She said she doesn't use them when she plans to drive, or carry her gun.

"That's as stupid as mixing alcohol and weapons,"' she said.

Oregon sheriffs are not happy about the state's medical marijuana law.

"The whole medical marijuana issue is a concern to sheriffs across the country who are involved in it mainly because there is so much potential for abuse or for misuse and as a cover for organized criminal activity," said Washington County Sheriff Rob Gordon, who became part of the Willis case because his office turned down three medical marijuana patients in the Portland suburbs for concealed handgun permits. "You can't argue that people aren't misusing that statute in Oregon.

"Not everybody, of course. Some have real medical reasons. But ...the larger group happens be people who are very clearly abusing it."

The sheriffs argue that the 1968 U.S. Gun Control Act prohibits selling firearms to drug addicts, and they say that includes medical marijuana card holders. Their briefs state that they cannot give a permit to carry a gun to someone prohibited from buying or owning a gun.

But the cardholders have won so far arguing this is one situation where federal law does not trump state law, because the concealed handgun license just gives a person a legal defense if they are arrested, not a right.

Oregon's attorney general has sided with the marijuana cardholders, arguing that the concealed handgun license cannot be used to buy a gun, so sheriffs who issue one to a marijuana card holder are not in violation of the federal law.

Willis' lawyer, Leland Berger, says it is much simpler.

The sheriffs "are opposed to the medical marijuana act," Berger said from Portland. "It's not based on reason. That's how they are."

Rural southern Oregon is awash with marijuana — legal and illegal. Arrests for illegal plantations are commonplace. The region's six counties also have the highest rate of medical marijuana use in the state. There are also a lot of guns in the Rogue Valley, where Willis lives.

Sixteen states now have medical marijuana laws, according to NORML, an advocacy group. There is no way to determine how many medical marijuana cardholders also have gun permits. Patient lists are confidential, and an Oregon court ruled the sheriffs can't look at them.

NORML executive director Allen St. Pierre said Oregon courts have not been entirely medical marijuana friendly. While they have upheld the right to pack a pistol, they have also ruled that employers can fire people who use medical marijuana.

"A person who uses medical cannabis should not have to give up their fundamental rights as enumerated by the Constitution,"' St. Pierre said.

Gordon said he expects the gun issue to come up in other states with medical marijuana laws.

Oregon was the first state in the country to decriminalize small amounts of marijuana, with legislation enacted in 1973. And it was right behind California in making medical marijuana legal when voters approved a ballot measure in 1998. But voters here stopped short of following California all the way to selling medical marijuana to cardholders at dispensaries. A ballot measure failed last year, so patients still have to grow their own or get someone else to grow it for them at cost, with no profit margin.

Oregon is one of 37 states where the sheriff has to give a concealed handgun permit to anyone meeting the list of criteria, though they have some discretion to say what those criteria are. They generally require people to be 21, a U.S. citizen, pass a gun safety course, and have no criminal record or history of mental illness, drug or alcohol abuse, or domestic violence.

The issue doesn't really come up in California, where concealed handgun licenses are much harder to get.

If Willis loses, she plans to carry her pistol out in the open, in a holster on her hip, which is, under Oregon law, perfectly legal.

"I've been done harm in my life and it won't ever happen again,"' she said about her reasons for wanting the gun. "I've never had to draw it"




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