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The ones with the axe to grind are the states shutting these products down in the name of sanity. They are protecting patients, as they should, as ours should. That is where the outrage should be directed. Our state should be stopping this as a health concern. In fact this would make a good sixty minutes story. Big money AG companies in cahoots with our govt. to poison us, while our own elected officials spend money to fight us. Us the people who voted all this in, we're being subjected to harassment and poisoning. Some who would profit are in our community.....shredder

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Is the liver damage nothing to be concerned about? I am not confusing any of these products, and I am concerned with the paclobutrazol in Gravity. It is you that keeps bringing up the cancer red herring as if that is the only disease to fear, I guess. As far as I am concerned the warning to patients and their caregivers should cover all of them.

 

Gravity and Bushmaster are being "lumped in" for using the same deceptive labeling practices with different dangerous chemicals that cause different health problems. I guess it just depends on what you think the real problem is: cancer, or deceptive marketing. Of course cancer can be bad, but I bet liver damage is no picnic, and regardless, they are lying by omitting the safety labeling.

 

We need to teach these manufacturers that this behavior is not acceptable, or others will follow their lead of profit over health. Do we really want to have to test every bottle on the shelf before we feel comfortable using it? Why can't these manufacturers just follow the rules laid out for food crops at least?

 

There have been several people that read this thread and assumed that Gravity was carcinogenic. They did that because of the presentation.

 

I agree with the bad labeling. How about labeling the bad lumping in as propaganda?

 

That liver damage requires gallons of Gravity to cause.

 

So far, Gravity hasn't been shown to do anything harmful, in normal usage. The stuff with the other compound HAS been shown to be POTENTIALLY carcinogenic.

 

It is deceptive to lump them together as has been presented here.

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I should also say that you have absolutely no idea how much Gravity it takes to hurt somebody. Don't even try to say that you do. There has simply not been enough testing.

 

Saying that you have to drink gallons to hurt you is based on insufficient evidence. You have no basis in science for even saying it. That is deceptive.

 

Here .. take your pick. As I did a couple of months ago.

 

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=28&xhr=t&q=paclobutrazol+MSDS&tok=A9gZXcIu56YyF2-c2D2qxA&pq=paclobutrazol+cancer&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=paclobutrazol+MS&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4b3c420078196b39&biw=1600&bih=771

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And no .. the testing for humans hasn't been done.

 

They don't usually feed humans various amounts of a chemical to see how much it takes to kill the human.

 

Anyone using it is testing it. Some are testers without knowing it. None are tested according to any semblance of protocol, or by approved science. This is more fly by night goober science, with patient's health, seen as an acceptable risk, in the name of profits. Anyone knowingly giving this to cancer patients is criminally insane, and a detrimate to any medical claims for the movement as a whole. We're not doctors or scientist, but we should have common sense......shredder

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Do you not see how ridiculous your argument has become?

 

No I don't. I think it is a waste of my time.

But, there has been a claim that Gravity has a known cancer causing substance in it. Not by you or anyone here. Rather it is the information that you have been fed.

 

In addition, if Gravity has 500-600 ppm of paclobutrazol, and the RfD is 1.3e-2 mg/kg/day, are you really sure you can drink gallons before reaching the threshold?

 

OK .. numbers.

 

Say it's 600 ppm and it takes 1.3 mg/kg/day to do the damage.

 

I'll use 100 kg as a human body weight for simplicity. I know that's a little heavy. One reason I used 1.3 instead of 2 mg/kg/day.

 

And 600 ppm is the high end also.

 

1,000,000/600 = 1,667. That's the ratio. If you consume 1,667 grams of Gravity you receive 1 gram of paclobutrazol.

 

The toxic level = 2 mg * 100 = 200 mg per day. So you take the 1,667 and divide by 5 you get 333.4 grams of Gravity needed to be consumed every day to hit that amount.

 

That's eleven fluid ounces per day. OK .. not gallons. Just about 1.5 cups of pure Gravity per day.

 

I saw nothing about toxic build up, smoking or cancer in any of these reports. I take that back. Cancer was tested. There was none observed.

The claim being made here, is that Gravity causes cancer. I believe that is an error.

There are other reasons to object to Gravity. Use the truth instead of false claims. Here another product was tested and the results are being applied to Gravity by hype, not science.

 

You claimed I didn't have the science to back me up. I think that was, also, in error.

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Anyone using it is testing it. Some are testers without knowing it. None are tested according to any semblance of protocol, or by approved science. This is more fly by night goober science, with patient's health, seen as an acceptable risk, in the name of profits. Anyone knowingly giving this to cancer patients is criminally insane, and a detrimate to any medical claims for the movement as a whole. We're not doctors or scientist, but we should have common sense......shredder

 

Gee .. I guess we're already dead.

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Ah, good. We have a revision in the peanutbutters theory of gravity. No longer does it just take gallons, but only cups to harm. Hope nobody out there was making Gravity cocktails since you did the math the first time.

 

I wonder if it's possible that some other folks, some that know science and math and biology better than you or I, have interpreted these reports and others that we cannot see and do not have access to, then decided to put the warning label on stuff containing paclobutrazol and alar?

 

I think I will await further revisions to peanutbutters theory of gravity before I invest in this miracle product. It really seems iffy and risky to use it in any quantity on patients' medicine. I think you have actually proven my point in a very final way, peanutbutter. It's not really about cancer at all.

 

And it has nothing to do with alar. Why lump in alar?

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I want to give an unrelated example of why caution is a good idea. (If any one wants to buy partially filled bottles of Gravity or Bushmaster I got em!)

 

when I was a teenager (forty years a go). I was at a friends house. His father who was a scientist explained to me why a sweetener was banned in 10 days. I am trying to recall the name. It was found that the sweetener saccharin and this other sweetener had not harmful effects when never used concurrently. But in rats when given the stuff at the same time the incidence of liver cancer exceeded 70%. It was no problem coming across products with both sweeteners. So then the govt decided it would ban one so it banned the one that was less widely distributed. Everything was off the shelves in a week.

 

The point being that you really have to be careful with things cause often small amounts of a given chemical might have really bad effects. We cannot avoid everything but certainly if something is suspect we can avoid it if we have a choice. Gravity and Bushmaster contain substances that we should not eat. I think it is better to play it on the side of caution.

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I want to give an unrelated example of why caution is a good idea. (If any one wants to buy partially filled bottles of Gravity or Bushmaster I got em!)

 

when I was a teenager (forty years a go). I was at a friends house. His father who was a scientist explained to me why a sweetener was banned in 10 days. I am trying to recall the name. It was found that the sweetener saccharin and this other sweetener had not harmful effects when never used concurrently. But in rats when given the stuff at the same time the incidence of liver cancer exceeded 70%. It was no problem coming across products with both sweeteners. So then the govt decided it would ban one so it banned the one that was less widely distributed. Everything was off the shelves in a week.

 

The point being that you really have to be careful with things cause often small amounts of a given chemical might have really bad effects. We cannot avoid everything but certainly if something is suspect we can avoid it if we have a choice. Gravity and Bushmaster contain substances that we should not eat. I think it is better to play it on the side of caution.

 

Caution indeed. Which is why I'm not going to use it anymore.

 

Rats being tested with saccharin were fed massive amounts of it. It has been returned to the market now. So was the government mistaken years ago or now?

 

(and I don't use saccharine or nutrasweet either for the same reasons)

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This is getting bad. That is not what anyone has been saying. Two different chemicals. Multiple different products. All dangerous and shouldn't be used by caregivers.

 

So then, to be clear, alar has NOTHING to do with Gravity.

And if I hadn't said anything, there would have been many people reading this thread thinking that Gravity had alar in it.

And that Gravity has been proven to be cancer causing. -> IT HAS NOT BEEN SHOWN AT ALL. Zero hints about that EXCEPT in threads like this one.

 

I just hope that people look more closely at the information we are being fed.

 

This has been like saying "chlorine gas was used as a chemical warfare agent, Therefore your city, that supplies your water, is using chemical warfare against you."

 

weird stuff.

 

Just be honest in your criticism. I'm sure that you can put Gravity down without resorting to propaganda tricks.

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and continue to use the products even in the face of the information presented

 

What information?

 

The product is mislabeled.

 

The government said it is not for human use.

 

It has been pulled from the shelves of many stores.

 

I ask why and get everything about other products/compounds mixed in with information about this one.

 

I figure there must be some fire to go with all this smoke. But I can't find it.

 

And I'm still presuming there's fire there .. somewhere. I just haven't been able to find it yet. Frankly I was hoping you would show me.

 

Anyway .. I rarely accept it when someone says "just trust me." When I see information being slanted being combined with that message, I greatly discount the message. I assume that I'm being manipulated.

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