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Extracts And Solvents


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#1 washtenaut

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:39 AM

There have been several threads that have discussed this issue but I had a few questions and wondered what about the general consensus. 

 

It seems 'no solvents' would be the best option but then again, receiving the flood of cannabinoids from a concentrate can be very beneficial to people with certain afflictions.  So there is a risk/benefit assessment that must be done on a case by case basis. There is no absolute answer I don't believe.

 

How likely is it that the extract will help and is the possible harm from a solvent residue more risky than the damage/pain from the affliction.  To the 'terminal cancer patient', that residue would have to be pretty harmful to outweigh the possible benefits.  To the patient with a sore knee, that knee would have to be awfully painful to outweigh the possible risks from a solvent.

 

Do these solvents accumulate in a person's body over time with repeated use?  Some toxins are passed with each use and some things accumulate in organs of the body and eventually reach a toxic level.  Does anyone know if residues from butane, naphtha, or iso alcohol accumulate in humans?

 

How much of these solvents would a person need to ingest in a sitting in order to feel sick?  In other words, how many milliliters of iso alcohol or naphtha would a person have to drink to have ill effects?

 

I know there is residue in all naphtha extracts but if the naphtha is say 1-2% of the extract(a guess), is that residual amount a real health concern?  To a healthy person?  To a terminal patient?



#2 Celliach

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:55 AM

Good questions.  This is one of the reasons that I don't use oils.  That and if I smoke them, I can't breathe properly for the rest of the day.



#3 Northern Lab

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 10:19 AM

An excellent primer on solvents:

http://skunkpharmres...ols-and-ethers/

Some solvents (hexane, pentane, for example) can be tasted/smelled well below the levels where they pose a health risk. Ethanol washes are paramount to purging petro derived solvents that are liquid at atmosphere. Petro derived gasses aren't as difficult to get rid of, and generally pose less of a health risk than liquid petro derived solvents.

#4 Northern Lab

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 10:25 AM

Another good link from the Pharm:

http://skunkpharmres...out-afterwards/

#5 Celliach

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:28 AM

I'm still leery.  The FDA approved brominated vegetable oil for consumption, and then it turns out that there's problems over time with ingesting the small amount of the solvent bromine.  I'm just not sure that those small amounts are OK for you to ingest.  It's my opinion that the trace amounts of chemicals that we're putting into our bodies through the processed foods that many people eat are causing cancer and other health problems as people get older and the toxins continue to build up in your system.  

 

It might be OK to ingest a small amount of say, naptha or butane, but what about ingesting a small amount 1000 times or more over the course of your life?  Even if your ingesting once a day, that's 365 small doses of something that causes health risks in large doses after just one year. It doesn't seem safe to me, but I've been totally wrong before.  Either way, I'm not going to keep putting it into my body.  I already have enough health problems, I don't need to add to them.



#6 cristinew

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:07 PM

Just make sure the oil you use has the solvents fully removed..you should have no problem,,,you will get more toxins in a bowl of ice cream  than eating  clean cannabis oil for a life time..

 

How about propylene glycol, ethyl acetate, and yellow dye #5?

caroxymethyl cellulose, butyraldehyde, and amyl acetate are additives in some commercial ice creams. How about some diethyl glycol -- a cheap chemical used to take the place of eggs, which is also used in anti-freeze and paint removers.

Learn more: http://www.naturalne...l#ixzz2V4zbsQVi



#7 OG Fire Beaster

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:41 PM

I stopped using solvent extracted concentrates 5 years ago. Bubble hash or dry sift only. With the resurgence of "dabs" lately I have seen some nasty looking oils. Not for me. High quality full melt bubble is all I really need. I agree with Cel that they irritate the lungs and possibly the gums/teeth as well. Unless you made it yourself or spend money to get it tested there is not really any way to know for sure what is in these oils, waxes, budders, pastes, and so on.



#8 GrowGoddess

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:20 PM

Fear

 

Common sense people. Extracts and concentrates are potentially the cleanest most medicinal way to use cannabis period. If you believe otherwise, you are way out in left field. Concentrates are the future. I know that there are many people out there that lack the confidence in making concentrates. They are afraid of it. Then there are people out there that are also afraid of it because they do not know what they are really getting when they didn't make it themselves. I understand and do not blame them. Seriously, we need to get past this. Concentrated cannabis is the only form of cannabis that is truly medicinal. I am not saying this because it was told to me, not because I read it somewhere, it is because of experience and usage. Yes, concentrates need to be produced safely, there is no denying that.

 

Toxins: Why so much worry about concentrates? Me personally, I would be much more worried about the grow room and just smoking the buds. There are potentially far more toxins. For instance, chemical fertilizers, pesticides, etc. The list goes on and on. It gets very technical. I am taking this more serious than most. I do not want to consume cannabis with red oil in it. Especially if it was not grown 100% organically. That is one of the reasons why I prefer concentrated cannabis. The first thing I do is remove all the red oil. What is red oil? The water soluble part of the plant. Many of the toxins from the fertilizers and pesticides end up in the red oil. Where is the red oil? The red oil is in your buds. Maybe it is in your bubble hash. Where there is no red oil: inside most concentrated cannabis extracts when made correctly.  If one is that concerned about the solvent, what is so difficult about using 190 proof grain alcohol?

 

Sheesh, I just do not understand why this argument continues, and on so many threads. I just don't see why. 

 

That is all I will consume, concentrated cannabis (RSO), when made correctly. I only use 99% isopropyl alcohol or 190 proof grain alcohol.

 

Since I started using an oil pen vaporizer, my lungs feel better than ever! There is no going back to buds now, besides, it is not as clean.

 

I have spoken my peace. I do not feel the need to continue to shove my opinions down everybody's throats.

 

By the way, I had to mix 20-30% propylene glycol with the cannabis oil to make it work with the tank style e-cigarette pen. The image of the "blob" is pure cannabis oil (RSO). That oil looks pretty clean and safe to me. 

 

E Cannabis Oil Aka G Oil
Premium RSO 2013 0330 15


#9 GregS

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

For some it's a pissing contest. It is, after all, the interwebs.

 

I am coming to prefer hash diluted with vegetable oil. My brand of kool aid.



#10 Northern Lab

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:38 PM

I find concentrates to be easier on my lungs as well, as long as I'm careful about the size of the dab. Smoking flowers these days hurts me a lot more.

My patients that have tried properly made concentrates seem to agree.

#11 Celliach

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:50 PM

If you're using 190 proof grain alcohol, you are definitely leaving sugar residue behind.  I certainly would never smoke oil made with grain alcohol and coat my lungs with sugar.

 

GG, First, to say that only oils are good for medicinal use complete and utter BS.  Sorry, but I have to call you out on that one.  I get plenty of relief from nausea from smoking the plant and I'm sure there are many other people on this forum that will attest to the fact they are getting palliative benefits.  

 

Second, if there are chemicals on the buds, pesticides, fertilizers, how do you know they aren't water soluble like THC.  Of course if they were water soluble you would be removing them, but what about chemicals that aren't, oil or alcohol-based products instance.  I don't know if there are non-water soluble pesticides, but it sure seems like there would be.

 

I just don't think there's enough information out there on the extract solvents and their interactions with the cannabis.  It's too bad someone isn't doing a scientific study on this for us to refer to.  Until there is, I can't know which side of the debate is correct, and when it comes to my health I'd rather err on the side of caution.  I'm not telling anyone else they have to, it's just the way I am about my health.  I rarely eat any processed foods for the same reason.



#12 Celliach

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:50 PM

I find concentrates to be easier on my lungs as well, as long as I'm careful about the size of the dab. Smoking flowers these days hurts me a lot more.

My patients that have tried properly made concentrates seem to agree.

 

Do you or your patients have COPD?



#13 GrowGoddess

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:01 PM

One of my patients friends has COPD. They tried the e-gigg with my cannabis oil solution and they said they were amazed at how it helped their lungs feel and their breathing was better. They commented that they have never had anything yet that helped their lungs like the cannabis oil in the vape pen.



#14 Northern Lab

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

Do you or your patients have COPD?

 

Nope.

 

One of my patients friends has COPD. They tried the e-gigg with my cannabis oil solution and they said they were amazed at how it helped their lungs feel and their breathing was better. They commented that they have never had anything yet that helped their lungs like the cannabis oil in the vape pen.


Awesome!

#15 OG Fire Beaster

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:26 PM

I'm not really trying to smoke(atomize) propylene glycol. It is debatable that it has many impurities in it. I don't smoke much cannabis these days, I mostly eat it. It is not so much the toxins that bothers me, as I still smoke cigarettes and those are loaded with garbage, its the high that just does not feel right to me. When I used to smoke BHO frequently, that I made and can attest to it being very clean, I noticed receding along my gum lines. Stopped smoking it and it went away. The various extract methods that have been around for a long time, BHO, RSO, QWISO, etc, are nothing new and are hardly the "future" of medicine. Maybe the future of marketing. To each their own. I didn't really know it was that much of a debate. Not knocking what anyone is doing or promoting just offering my perspective. Buds and kief still do fine by me.



#16 cristinew

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

I find concentrates to be easier on my lungs as well,

 

I agree.......  heck with smoking worthless fiber...



#17 Northern Lab

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

If you're using 190 proof grain alcohol, you are definitely leaving sugar residue behind.  I certainly would never smoke oil made with grain alcohol and coat my lungs with sugar.

 

GG, First, to say that only oils are good for medicinal use complete and utter BS.  Sorry, but I have to call you out on that one.  I get plenty of relief from nausea from smoking the plant and I'm sure there are many other people on this forum that will attest to the fact they are getting palliative benefits.  

 

Second, if there are chemicals on the buds, pesticides, fertilizers, how do you know they aren't water soluble like THC.  Of course if they were water soluble you would be removing them, but what about chemicals that aren't, oil or alcohol-based products instance.  I don't know if there are non-water soluble pesticides, but it sure seems like there would be.

 

I just don't think there's enough information out there on the extract solvents and their interactions with the cannabis.  It's too bad someone isn't doing a scientific study on this for us to refer to.  Until there is, I can't know which side of the debate is correct, and when it comes to my health I'd rather err on the side of caution.  I'm not telling anyone else they have to, it's just the way I am about my health.  I rarely eat any processed foods for the same reason.

 

Do you have a source for the bold? Does 190 Everclear really contain enough sugar to coat one's lungs?

 

Safe solvent extraction of botanicals has been going on for a minute now, so we have lots of data to refer to. Cannabis resin isn't much different from other plant resins. It can be extracted safely using a number of different solvents and techniques, each with it's own advantage over the next. As long as you know what you're doing and understand basic organic chemistry, you can make any solvent extract as safe or safer than mom's apple pie.

 

Problem is, of course, some folks don't know what they're doing, pass out bad product, and make a bad name for solvent extracts.



#18 t-pain

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 06:22 PM

the question is important, the FDA only tests eating a things like propylene glycol.

they dont test what it does to the body if you smoke it.

 

have you had your oil tested?

what percentage was iso alcohol?

i guess it would be in the ppm scale. very small amounts?

there are labs that test for it. i'll try to look up some results to get a baseline/average.

 

iso alcohol is an irritant for the lungs. it burns your lungs when you breathe it.

http://www.erowid.or...hol_info3.shtml

 * POISONOUS GASES ARE PRODUCED IN FIRE. 

 

cannabis smoke contains tar, or so they say.

does the oil also contain the tar? or is that only in the plant matter?



#19 jointedone

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 07:37 PM

A nice person here on the site gave me a recipe for a tea. I am making it tomorrow and will let everybody know how it is.



#20 Northern Lab

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 08:34 PM

the question is important, the FDA only tests eating a things like propylene glycol.
they dont test what it does to the body if you smoke it.
 
have you had your oil tested?
what percentage was iso alcohol?
i guess it would be in the ppm scale. very small amounts?
there are labs that test for it. i'll try to look up some results to get a baseline/average.
 
iso alcohol is an irritant for the lungs. it burns your lungs when you breathe it.
http://www.erowid.or...hol_info3.shtml
 * POISONOUS GASES ARE PRODUCED IN FIRE. 
 
cannabis smoke contains tar, or so they say.
does the oil also contain the tar? or is that only in the plant matter?


It's not actually smoked, it's vaporized. Atomized pg has been used in asthma inhalers since the 50s, so there are plenty of studies on inhalation.




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