Decarbing And Terpenes, Flavenoids And Cannabinoids

[Norby]

Is naturally decarbing the only way to keep all the flavenoids(as much as possible), terpenes and cannabinoids intact when making oil?  Is it better to decarb the oil or the flowers naturally?  I understand the 15 min at 300f for max. THC content.  I also hear that naturally decarbing the oil and taking it over time the "effect"(psychological) gets more pronounced but how do other components degrade or become active over the time involved?  I guess naturally decarbing the oil would give you the most wide range of components if you took it a little at a time as you would get everything into your system before it degrades or becomes active and is still in it's acid form. For a cancer patient who might need to start right away it may be better to destroy some things with heat to get the active THC and CBD, CBG, THCV and the things that wouldn't get destroyed by heat.

 

Such as a list of terpenes and degradation temps.  I imagine the degradation would be different for them depending upon temp, oxygen availability and what was actually in the mix.  I realize things like Vit. C are used to take out oxygen from the system by oxidizing first so there are probably certain components that would be lost before it decarbed naturally.  So maybe the interaction is to complex to figure at this point but little snipits can always come into play later.

 

Also is there a temp that you can get above to start decarb and run it for 2-5 hours to loose as few volatiles as possible and still get the decarb done?  I've heard reports of using food dehydrators overnite but I don't think they get above 170 and I think I read that decarb starts above 212.

 

[in vivo]

Terpenes don't need to be decarb'd.  You actually lose them when heat is applied. There's a thread titled 'evaluation of solvents' that provides some insight into the profiles that different solvents extract. They showed that the most complete profile could be extracted by nonvolatile nonpolar solvents (like olive oil/coconut oil/etc). That's not always or often going to be practical for acquiring more concentrated levels.

 

I'm interested in ways of increasing (or losing less of) the terpene content via processing. I've been playing around a little with methods. Not certain if I've been having success or not yet. I dried a little tester plant of the canna 4, crumbled it, put it in a jar with a sealed lid, decarb'd it, let it get back down to room temp, then extracted it. The oil smells great, but I was disappointed with the overall terpene content. I suspect that I would have been better off extracting and then decarbing. I'll be trying that next round.

 

These questions might be better off in the terpene thread. You can find information about the boiling points of terpenes on the first page.        

[trichcycler]

.... I think I read that decarb starts above 212.

Decarboxylation begins the moment you kill your plant, at room temperature in the drying room. It will continue with time, until the herb is totally tasteless, with little effect, mostly tiring sleepy stuff left, useless to some.

Heating causes terpenes to vaporize, starting at much lower than 212f.

 

My best oils come from properly dried herb, gently handled, and used fresh. For ingestion I heat my oil under pressure to 109F, keeping in mind the herb has been dried and decarb'd some too.

Cooking it higher and longer makes it tiring, slack jawed like for us, but some patients do enjoy that. I think "decarbing" came from folks trying to process large amounts of freshly harvested marijuana into a more manageable oil/hash. without first drying or decarbing the effects were less desired than when heated in an oven for awhile. I remember hippies doing this and they thought they were drying it is all. extracting form the wet herb is water rich too. This is only my experience and opinion and probably not at all like  anyone else's. I would do it the way that works best for you and yours. Try it different ways with smaller amounts for your win.

 

peace

[in vivo]

I prefer bubble over oil in part for the added terpenes, and we've found processing fresh material is the way to go for that. I haven't tried making oil from fresh material. There's so much to investigate. It'd be interesting to see a profile of a flower, oil, and bubble to look at which solvents are pulling what. The method I tried with processing the canna 4 is kinda what GW Pharm does, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. I want to say they decarb prior because it helped with standardization and the extraction efficacy. Maybe it's more standardization than efficacy and we're better off with methods currently in use.   

Edited March 17, 2014 by in vivo

[trichcycler]

a polarity check of cannabis constituents and solvents could answer the question without actually having to do the extraction perhaps.

for instance we know the isopropyl alcohol will extract more water soluble items than N-Butane, the closest match to the active ingredients.

 

I think I saw GW using a naptha filled rotational evaporator in an extraction. I'd like to spend some time in their greenhouses and labs too.

[in vivo]

I can't remember where I was reading about their process. They give some info on their site, but most is found in the patents. I imagine they were using the roto vap for clean up.

 

I like to keep tabs on them through their patents:

 

https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=inassignee:%22Gw+Pharma+Limited%22

 

I'm not familiar enough with the polarity of the compounds, or chemistry in general, but I assume that you're right. That seems like it would be a sound way to proceed. Might find that some solvents are better in particular scenarios depending on the present compounds that are most desired. 

[trichcycler]

. Might find that some solvents are better in particular scenarios depending on the present compounds that are most desired. 

That is precisely the chemistry you will find when considering botanical extractions. Nbutane is at the top of the list as the most efficient solvent

to extract our active compounds. Its polarity index is unmatched, as its extracted from crude oil and comes out at the top of the fractional distillery.

At the bottom would be water, in the middle would be acetones, alcohols, napthas maybe, hexane, pentane are near the top also.

 

I've extracted hydrosols with water too, even from cannabis. the essential oils are abundant, but arguably the most active compound stays locked up.

after a water extraction, re dry, then nbutane, the product is closer to an absolute, like an amber glass. The hydrosols could be used in a cannabis perfume. very soapy, sweet, and ancient, depending on strain. soap is a natural goal with cannabis oil also. There's little to no chemical difference between soap, oil, wax, just a quick hydrogen bubble to (transfat) separate a couple molecules is all.

[cristinew]

enclosed environments are the best to decarb , and a lower temp.   i think the thread is on de carb  , not extraction methods,? 

 

That is precisely the chemistry you will find when considering botanical extractions. Nbutane is at the top of the list as the most efficient solvent

Not for me,. 

Edited March 17, 2014 by cristinew

[trichcycler]

solvent and active ingredient polarity matching is not a personal choice, its chemistry.   Oil is what we're after, only nbutane is a perfect polarity match to our active ingredients.  but you are right about the subject matter, and the digression. I blame in vivo, for  pondering the following;

 

"Might find that some solvents are better in particular scenarios depending on the present compounds that are most desired. "

 

it will happen again in the forum, good luck

enclosed environments are the best to decarb , and a lower temp.   i think the thread is on de carb  , not extraction methods,? 

 

That is precisely the chemistry you will find when considering botanical extractions. Nbutane is at the top of the list as the most efficient solvent

Not for me,. 

[in vivo]

I'm certainly not convinced that tane is superior to ice water. Iso, EtOH, naptha, tane, acetone, they're all sufficient for cannabinoids. I wonder if (mono sequi di etc) have enough variance in polarity that solvents could be chosen more selectively based on a desire to accentuate a particular group in a botanical extract.

 

The solvent is also only part of the process. By the time most bho has been fully processed those poor terpenes sure take a hit.  

[trichcycler]

ice water is really not the solvent at all. Its a mechanical extraction chilling the waxy trichome stalks so they break easy when agitated then filtered for selected size no ?

 

I agree most solvents will do the job, but some are much easier to facilitate removal than others. I absolutely loved the naptha extract once the rotational evap was finished, but still think naptha is a bad idea to promote. ISO rocks, right off the supermarket shelf, cheap, easy to work with and remove, relatively safe and efficient.  

the pharmacy stares at me when I buy up all the 99% stock @ Meijer ha! 

[in vivo]

Here are some links to info on the op:

 

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/

 

http://www.marijuanagrowershq.com/decarboxylating-cannabis-turning-thca-into-thc/

[trichcycler]

ole skunks got  it going on over there. one to watch

[in vivo]

That's kinda my point about the ice water vs tane (or any solvent). The solvent used for the extract is only part of the process so it seems like we have to take into consideration any additional steps involved. Flowers vs solvent-less vs solvents is what I'm interested in learning the differences of.   

[Norby]

I was under the impression that THC, CBD, CBG,THCV and possibly others had to have the H2O and C or Co2 molecule released before it became active.  I didn't think the terpenes or flavenoids had to be decarbed, just that they would be present during the process.  I'm not great at stating what I'm looking for and more confuse people by overstating, sorry. Led to great conversation on extracting and definitely answered questions I would've asked later in the thread, thanks. The idea was what process destroys the least thru decarbing and the following would be what process of extraction would leave the most terpenes, flavenoids and cannabinoids intact in the final product and get them into the final product. 

 

I figured that it might be extracting into an oil such as olive or coconut without decarbing and without heat.  If you left the flower in 90f oil for a couple days and shook vigorously each day would the chlorophyll extract into the oil?  Would you get 100% or close enough to it, of all the constituents found in the flowers or are some compounds not oil soluble?  Then a natural 6-8 week decarb in the container?

 

Just trying to wrap my head a little more around extraction.  When I first read about decarb I didn't think about what the 300f for 15 minutes was destroying and I'm not interested in getting the max THC, I'm more interested in getting the max amount of everything.

[in vivo]

You're correct. The plant produces the acidic forms (THCA) decarboxylation converts that to its neutral form (THC).

 

In terms of which process is best, it's all opinion at this point. Many people have methods that they gravitate towards.

 

I think the oils needs to bond with the cannabinoids in order to extract them with any efficiency.  

 

I think the info you seek can be found in the links above about decarboxylation temps and times.

 

You mmight be interested to learn about the rate at which these cannabinoids break down on their own which can be found by searching for 'stability of cannabinoids' on this forum.

 

As far as the methods and solvents if you search for 'evaluation of solvents' that paper has insight into which solvents pulled which profiles.

[cristinew]

evaporation is what happens  to the terpines  and flavorids   they go away in the air first,  so an enclosed environment is best