Caregiver Costs Of Supplies

[credfield]

Edit: Don't bother reading any of this, I've been informed it's impossible to calculate a meaningful average of how much it costs to grow. It's just so wildly varied that any kind of dataset produced by the posters here would be invalidated immediately by the simple idea that someone out there might switch the lightbulbs every 2 seconds for optimal grow.

Hi, let me preface this by saying I'm a patient without a lot of money, I joined this forum to ask this question, and I'm not looking for the standard "how much should it cost," debate that seems to rage in 300 other threads.

I'm looking for a realistic breakdown of caregiver expenses in growing for multiple patients. Obviously this is a variable cost, the quality of the meds, the way it is grown, etc.

But on average if we factor in time spent, nutrients & supplies, and electricity there should be a cost / oz figure before the "what my time is worth," inflation.

Price of Product = Time Cost + Supplies Cost + Markup

What is Supplies Cost on average? (nutrients, electricity).
 

Edited June 7, 2014 by trix

[t-pain]

look at dispensary prices in your area (weedmaps website)

take a few dollars off of those prices. thats usually what cgs are charging. i could be wrong.

 

let me put it this way, for $20 of seeds, $200 in fencing, $50 in water, you could grow 12 plants outdoors.

add in $30 for nutes.

 

lets say 6 pounds for 12 plants

$300 / 6lbs = $50 per lb

$3 / oz for outdoor.

 

theres a 'grow marijuana for cheap' book out there which details the lowest cost per oz indoor i think.

just depends on grow conditions and electricity costs etc.

[credfield]

I feel like it's probably unfair to factor in the costs of the equipment if you aren't averaging it over the lifespan of the equipment, because the equipment doesn't need to be rebought at the same intervals as - say - nutrients and water.

Edited June 2, 2014 by credfield

[trichcycler]

growing outside for multiple patients will require some good understandings between cg and patients. There is no growing season for almost six months outdoors and results vary, risks increase, and losses are common. With current usable amounts allowed 2.5 ounces at a time may be hard to manage with a single harvest for thought, and a season without meds possibly.

 

Indoors my costs are roughly $400 dollars per month in electricity, $50 monthly in bulbs, I use spring water(part of the elec bill for pump) At peak summer heat my cooling bill raises the 400 to 500, and at peak humidity my dehumidifier does the same. There is a window of season that my electricity drops to under 400, but it last only for a week or two. I grow using recycled dirt, purchased once, 100,000 worms bred and raised here, eating only indoor garden scraps. My C02 augmentation costs roughly $40 per month in propane costs. Genetics seem expensive, but are not in the bigger picture. Starter cubes, substrate, cloning supplies, are negligible.

 

hope that helps

[Norby]

no, but the equipment does have to be paid for in a timely fashion.  Interest does accrue if you can't pay a couple thousand for the lights, timers, aircooled system and ac or dehumidifier, plus the electric costs on that.  If you want the best meds possible for aids or immunocomprimised patients and add in hepa filters and testing costs.  Then if you do it organic without chelated liquid ferts and add in bat guano, calcium, dolomite, blood meal, alfalfa, kelp etc. and your looking at a couple hundred dollars.  Tents, info, scissors, racks, etc. and it does add up and have to be paid off quickly.

 

Add in a drip system and clone machine if you ever want to leave.  Carbon filters set up right if your wife doesn't like the smell. 

 

genetics cost if they are a monthly thing as your looking thru to get your med cabinet, esp if your just starting out.  Some seed packs go over $200 just to get one female out of it.  Just a 5 pack of TGA regular(which means you may get 4 males and have to try again to get a keeper) runs $50.  Multiply that by whatever # to get that many strains in a quick time period and your looking at $1000 or more to get the cabinet up.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Norby

[credfield]

I agree that the equipment should be factored in, but it should be averaged over the lifespan of each piece. It can be done pretty easily if a cost breakdown per component could happen.

@grassmatch that information could help a lot if you would indicate your yields.

[Norby]

So I should pay out of pocket and not recoop the costs for 10 years or more?  Unless you have someone fronting you money without having to pay interest and can take payments of $100 a year it's not feasible. You can do the math however you want but after running a business I'll tell you that it won't work.  Unless your just trying to figure out a per oz. cost for some other reason than reality of being a caregiver.  If so, then I apologize, I misunderstood the question.

[credfield]

Figuring out the realistic costs of a caregiver are the only goals here. If you buy a $200 light, should that factor into your cost every month as though you're buying more lights every month? Obviously not. And that's all I'm saying.

@Zapatosunidos.

Strictly speaking, there always is an "average cost to grow," but as other posters have indicated this can be very complex based on the needs of the patient. That's why you would have high values and low values, and an average value. If the average didn't exist, neither would any of the other values.

Edited June 2, 2014 by credfield

[Norby]

Yes it should factor into the cost every month because you never know when it will burn out or what might happen.  It's a piece of equipment that costs money that is imperative to your grow.  If I had a guitar as my only piece of equipment I'd charge less.  If you don't want to factor that in as a monthly charge, you can do what you want.  Eventually all your equipment would fail and so would you.  Ac, dehumid, lights, filters, all cost money and all wear out or break.  Technology gets better.  What if they come out with LED that can match HPS.  That's a big cost to cover at once for the upgrade to drop the elec bill with new technology.  I don't know how much I'd put in for that but it's a real cost.  If a business doesn't add that in for the unknowns with imperative equipment they could end up not being a business real quick.  It seems that you'd want someone to pay the bill for all the supplies and take on the debt for the life of all the equipment.  At that rate you'd never be out of debt because you're always paying on equipment.

[credfield]

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying if you have a $200 light that lasts on average 6 months before burning out, then over a year that's a $400/year expenditure. Not $200*12 months. It should NOT be factored in every month, you COULD add a term to account for random burnouts, or catastrophes that would increase the cost.

[credfield]

If we're talking about answering it to the letter of some scientific study, then maybe there would be a point about not having all the data. What I'm trying to do is look at round-about answers based on people's own setups, based on the yield that they produce, and the supposed quality. It would be fairly easy to get a rough scale of quality to price, and an average operating cost per plant.

[credfield]

However, I can see why these conversations rapidly devolve. I'm not surveying 20,000 Michigan caregivers, and boy if I did, I'm sure I'd get honest results.

Edited June 2, 2014 by credfield

[Highlander]

growing outside for multiple patients will require some good understandings between cg and patients. There is no growing season for almost six months outdoors and results vary, risks increase, and losses are common. With current usable amounts allowed 2.5 ounces at a time may be hard to manage with a single harvest for thought, and a season without meds possibly.

 

Indoors my costs are roughly $400 dollars per month in electricity, $50 monthly in bulbs, I use spring water(part of the elec bill for pump) At peak summer heat my cooling bill raises the 400 to 500, and at peak humidity my dehumidifier does the same. There is a window of season that my electricity drops to under 400, but it last only for a week or two. I grow using recycled dirt, purchased once, 100,000 worms bred and raised here, eating only indoor garden scraps. My C02 augmentation costs roughly $40 per month in propane costs. Genetics seem expensive, but are not in the bigger picture. Starter cubes, substrate, cloning supplies, are negligible.

 

hope that helps

 

I used to spend about that on bulbs too.  Then one day I bought four new 1000w bulbs and a neat gizmo that meters output.  I tested the old bulbs (already in 12/12 for a year) and then replaced them.  The new bulbs were only about 5% brighter.  So I took the new ones back out and reinstalled the old.  I ran those old bulbs for another two years or so with minimal loss of intensity and no noticeable loss of quantity or yield.  Myself, I think that the need for new bulbs every six months is over-hyped.  But that is just one grower's experience. 

[credfield]

LOL! Yes, it's impossible to calculate an average growing cost - because people have wild imaginations on how to grow it. I'm sure it's just as impossible to calculate average growing and production costs of blueberries/apples/grapes.

[GregS]

Oboyoboy. We're having this conversation again. Let me think about it and I'll get back to you. Or not.

 

Welcome nugget.

Edited June 2, 2014 by GregS

[credfield]

I just think it's funny is all. How many other products on earth are produced in such varied and wild ways as to justify the idea of "no set cost." Haha.

I get it though, I get why these threads don't work out no matter how the question is posed.

Edited June 2, 2014 by credfield

[Norby]

As I said, you wouldn't be in business long or you'd fall behind and be driven out.  A business doesn't work like that and you don't know when things will break or burnout. A digital ballast may last a year and a magnetic may last 10 or more with a $30 replacement part.  But if everyone buys $1000 Leds and you can't then your production costs are going to be above everyone elses who could afford a $4000 investment in new lights. 

 

Apples and grapes vary from year to year depending on the season, gas costs and a bunch of other variables.  Competition has run it's course and we're at the lowest cost because all the stragglers already went out of business. MJ has a large margin because of legality issues which puts it at a very much larger margin because of the different ways to grow.  In many years from now it will all be grown outside and you'll see near true costs of production because indoor grows will no longer be cost effective.   Now if your talking avg. price of cost on bluberries are you talking out of season from greenhouse production or indoor grown under lights?

 

LOL! Yes, it's impossible to calculate an average growing cost - because people have wild imaginations on how to grow it. I'm sure it's just as impossible to calculate average growing and production costs of blueberries/apples/grapes.

 

  Your looking for a caregivers costs in some other reality.  They can't help you if things breakdown and they can't get a new one.  If you overestimate on that it goes into your profits for time.  If not you provide less than adequate service in my book.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Norby

[credfield]

I meant the thread as a simple way for caregivers to state what their operating costs are and yields are, and maybe their setup. Then I could use that information to judge operating costs on a small subset of people, and use that data to judge how much it would cost me to run my own "similiar" operation. Would there be + or -? Yeah, there always is. But it doesn't cost $3 million to grow an ounce, and it doesn't costs 2 cents. There is a middle ground, there is an average.

[Highlander]

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying if you have a $200 light that lasts on average 6 months before burning out, then over a year that's a $400/year expenditure. Not $200*12 months. It should NOT be factored in every month, you COULD add a term to account for random burnouts, or catastrophes that would increase the cost.

 

You have to look at this under the notion of "capitalization rate" and "opportunity cost."  And these will vary from person to person.  For example. If I buy a $200 bulb, cash up front, today, and expect that blub to last a year, then what is my cost?  Well, it is $200 plus the 7% gain or so that I would not realize if I had invested that same $200 in my stock portfolio.  So the 1-year total cost for that bulb would be about $214.  On the other hand, if I put the $200 bulb on a credit card at 18% interest and paid it off a year later, the same bulb cost me $236.  Or, maybe I pawn my lawnmower in the fall for $200 so I can buy a new bulb, and when I go back in the spring to get my mower back, I pay $260.   In other words, when you are figuring "cost" there are many variables to consider, and many of those variables are based on the financial cost to the grower. 

 

Trying to figure average cost isn't very helpful.  You need to figure our your own personal cost, and you can't compare that to any other growers cost, because every grower has his own unique circumstance.  Then decide if your personal cost, weighed against what your patients can/will pay, is worthwhile.

 

A better approach would be to figure out what your market will bear.  If your patients can pay $200/oz and your out-of-pocket costs are $120, then you decide if it is worth it.  If you normally work for $8/hour then what makes it worthwhile will be a lot different that, say an attorney who can otherwise make $250/hour.  If you have all the work you can do for $250 per hour, then you need to consider that every hour you spend trimming buds is $250 you can't make at your day job.

 

Similarly, if you live in the UP and have a great basement, your annual cooling costs might be close to $0.  But if you live downstate and grow in a shed that is likely to hit 120 degrees F daily in the summer, your costs skyrocket.

 

Average costs and average compensation calculations don't do a lot for us.  We need to consider what is worthwhile to the individual.

 

Also, consider that average costs/compensation are mostly relevant in a free market.  But this isn't a free market.  It is a tightly-controlled economic model with a CG selling to only five patients.  Your costs might be $2 per gram, but averages become irrelevant.  We have about 100,000+ patients in Michigan.  For discussion's sake, let's say that the overall state average cost to grow is $2 per gram and the average patient pays $8 per gram.  But averages only mean something on the macro scale.  We deal at a micro scale.

[Norby]

Ya, but you need all the equipment.  An avg cost for my setup would take over 5k to start.  So the first ounce is 5k.  Otherwise I don't get to the other ounces to get an avg.  Avg won't help you if you can't come up with the initial investment.  You should be asking for initial investment costs or the avg doesn't mean anything.

[credfield]

Again, the entire purpose is to pick the minds of caregivers on their setups, how much it costs them, etc, the average I'm "computing," has to remain in context as round-about generated from answers I get on this forum. Not an over-arching sentiment that somehow sets the prices on MJ. I'm talking about how much it would cost to run, not how much the stuff should cost to a patient.

[credfield]

I don't think it's a bad idea to pick the brains of the caregivers that are already doing it, know their monthly and startup costs. I think it's valueable even if it only gives me a round-about answer. Or even if I know I might need double the amount of light.
 

[Highlander]

Light and time are the greatest expenses in indoor cultivation, and are widely varied depending on the choices made.

 

Yes...light and time...but also crop failure.  Investing 2 months in growing unknown strains that turn out to be males or hermies....Or running a plant through five weeks of flower only to find it killed by root rot or ruined due to mites or mildew....Another good example is clone survival rate/the ability to run a solid/sustainable harvest program..

 

In other words, there are many opportunities for a grower to find that he just wasted time, supplies, equipment, and electrical costs and that he stands to get $0 for that effort.

[Norby]

Even if an experienced grower walks them thru it, gives them all of their old equipment, clones, ferts, everything.  I've seen it happen and they couldn't keep them alive or keep them from hermieing, let alone match the quality.  Sorry, Zap I have to disagree.  If you don't come up with a useable product because of inexperience you can go without meds and the cash it cost for the setup.  Some people just can't do it.

  My patients think that they were not getting a great deal with their former caregiver because they got something inferior from someone with no experience(for the exact same price minus the free kif and hash I provide) and went to dispensaries(much more costly) because of mites and other problems they had.  His screw ups affected much more than himself though.  Could've been heat, humidity, strains, all of the above and def. mites.  There is a lot to go into it.  I understand your quote though as I often think that anyone can do it too but I've seen and heard enough that I have to remember that.  Some people just don't have a green thumb.  If you've kept other things alive you probably have an up on some of the stories I've heard.  Then I've seen people who never picked up a book or went on a forum that are just as good or better than most with experience.  You never know.  Something to take into account though.

[GregS]

I just think it's funny is all. How many other products on earth are produced in such varied and wild ways as to justify the idea of "no set cost." Haha.

 

I get it though, I get why these threads don't work out no matter how the question is posed.

It us a superfluous question. There are many ways and many products to choose from. Grow stores will sell you all the wiz bang nutes, supplies, and equipment they can. Some of us use methods that shave a lot from the cost.