Confused...

[trichcycler]

and selling them ?

[Highlander]

The letter of the law is plain, seeds don't count.

What is clear is that incidental seeds don't count. If the author of the law intended for any/all seeds not to count, then "incidental" would not have been added as a qualifier. I like the idea that seeds don't count, but I'm lost as to how you make the bridge between "seeds don't count" and " incidental seeds don't count"

[Highlander]

and selling them ?

Let's go with "seeds don't count". Seeds are not included in the definition of " usable marijuana."

 

Where is the section 4 protection for a CG to transfer anything other than " usable marihuana" or plants to a patient?

 

If seeds don't count and are not " usable MJ" then, sadly, I just can't see how section 4 provides protection for a CG to transfer seeds to a patient.

[Highlander]

Who knows? Guess we will have to wait and find out. I think it can go either way. People should just generally be safer and quieter all around. Don't sell to the police.

The same rule from 2008 applies: know thy patient. And put your hands over your ears and chant "blah blah blah". Ignorance is bliss - and intent is key.

[MiMedical]

The police never touched my seeds in there packages of ten, I had two packs of them, and they left them behind.. Typically though, I think they would take them aswell. But didn't. Years ago a few friends had got pulled over and they found A seed, nothing came of that, but they do also sell, pens that are gag gifts, or suvoniers that contained about 20 seeds in them, maybe they were cooked, or sterilized? Wonder if the labs can test for a good seed... Hah

[trichcycler]

zap,

 

right on !

[Highlander]

I will just come right out and say that I do not believe it benefits patients or their caregivers one iota to discuss possible defenses in public, for obvious reasons.

I disagree. The prosecutors are far better funded ( with nearly unlimited resources and probably the courts on their side) than we are and have been looking at nuances and traps for six years. I believe that any dissection of the law we come up with has already been batted-about by PAs. And we have now seen nearly countless defendants and public defenders with no clue. But this is your website and so if you'd rather we dispense with these discussions and avoid discussions of the potential/likely pitfalls, I respect that position.

 

While you think about that, I'd ask you to think about a Supreme Court case where the attorney was asked how our new law redressed a grievance, such that the law could be considered to codify a new right and thus should be applied retroactively. The attorney failed to mention how a district court judge, years ago now, ruled that Michigan had an MMJ law before and the legislature failed to renew it...and therefore the defendant ( who had a sorta MMJ rec before the law passed) should be exonerated. A few of us were yelling at the web video for the attorney to mention this past/expired law like we were cheering on the Detroit Lions. But it didn't come up. I think we as a community lost the opportunity for this law to be considered to redress a grievance and therefore be applied retroactively and therefore to allow old Dr. Recs to be recognized even if they predated the law.

 

The truth is, even us laypeople on this silly website collectively seem to have a body of knowledge that supplants the average or even astute public defender. So we have at least some social responsibility to hammer out ideas here so defendants with lazy attorneys might have a chance to introduce some strategy that would otherwise be lost. Or maybe identify the grey/ "don't go there" areas.

 

I believe that the more accurately we can understand the law, and the more fully we can anticipate the traps laid by the antis, the better. Increased knowledge and understanding plays more to our favor than theirs because we are in the passenger seat at best, possibly in the back seat, and more likely in the trunk.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Highlander

[GregS]

These prosecutors have been b!tch slapped more than once. Consider King and Redden.

[Highlander]

And as to prosecutors being well versed in the law and having kicked around every argument that can be made, some still misstate the law in open court, so I'd have to disagree with you on that. The biggest problem we confront in court is the ignorance of the prosecutors and judges.

I think you are referring to willful ignorance. PAs and their assistants are infamous for this in any kind of criminal proceeding - not just MMJ cases. And as we have seen, many judges are legitimately equally ignorant or willfully ignorant. Myself, I believe that a well -educated regulated community ( who understand both sides of the argument) is the best defense against ignorant and willfully-ignorant regulators. Again, though, I recognize that this is your platform, and the content should be in accordance with your philosophy. For this reason I will cease with the discussions of potential legal pitfalls and try my best to limit my contributions to how to best assist patients and caregivers with the best ways to alleviate medical conditions and leave topics of navigating the legal system to those wrapped-up in it.

[Highlander]

I should be clear that I agree with you on the above statement. It is simply the posting it in detail on a public website that I think is not beneficial, especially when we post the detailed counter-arguments. I truly don't think most prosecutors would come up with this stuff on their own. Also, attempting to resolve issues that have not been raised in all these cases since 2009 seems a fools errand. Can't we accept freedom in the few areas we can get it?

I read this after my last post. I can see the wisdom there. On the one hand, we can try to find all of the nuances, but I see how that can/could fuel those in opposition to our cause because we walk a fine line here. So the ignorance goes both ways.....pointing out possible pitfalls can plant ideas in the mind of a PA while the intent was to warn a patient or CG of a possible trap/grey area. I get that. I guess I never felt that PAs would garner strategy from the web. I could have been wrong. So I defer to you.

[GregS]

I should be clear that I agree with you on the above statement. It is simply the posting it in detail on a public website that I think is not beneficial, especially when we post the detailed counter-arguments. I truly don't think most prosecutors would come up with this stuff on their own. Also, attempting to resolve issues that have not been raised in all these cases since 2009 seems a fools errand. Can't we accept freedom in the few areas we can get it?

Can we?

[Highlander]

I believe we have about the same philosophy with just some difference on the scale at which it should be discussed. So I defer to your (broader) experience on how it should be discussed and will post accordingly. If all patients were cut from the "phaqueuoytoo" cloth, that would be one thing. But they are not so I defer to what you believe is best. Peace.

[GregS]

I've said it before. Our smoke and mirrors are better than their smoke and mirrors, and our smoke is much, much better.

[bustedinclintontwsp]

this is ridiculous why wouldn't a defendant use their constitutional right to appeal their case when this whole act is being built in appellate court.why would anyone want to be a medical marijuana marytr. that's just retarded.do you really think that a guy that lost his business home vehicle freedom credit criminal record and family support should give two craps about the next guy. Anyone reading this should understand although medical marijuana is legal in Michigan the police will do whatever they can to arrest you lock you up and keep marijuana illegal in Michigan. You probably woulda had better luck hiring a million dollar attorney before the act. I am here to tell anyone do not plead guilty to a medical marijuana felony under any circumstances whatsoever. And 2ne1 considering moving to Michigan for medical marijuana industry I tell you no way no how don't do it. Michigan is in trapping medical marijuana professional providers from all over the world because Michigan is broke.in reality you have little or no protections whatsoever in Michigan for any type of medical marijuana businessunless you are selling so much pot its not even funny and can affordwhite bread Country Club attorneys

 

This is something we can agree on. If you you lose your case,then take your lumps ( likely probation) and move on with life. If you win and the PA files an appeal then you are probably already in the driver's seat to create case law.

 

In not one to agree with the idea of " don't take any plea deal". We have already seen that underfunded and under supported defendants dish-up crappy case law. I'd hope that any appeal would be filed with the greater good in mind.

[BirdHunter]

If ever reviewd, it would likely occur as an incidental to the other circumstances that drove the prosecution of that particular situation. Say the Jerald Duval original facts in the case, plus add fiction that he was not only a grower of tree cannnabis but a breeder of cannabis as well, and that leo confiscated a tractor trailer load of blister-packaged seeds bound for the port of Detroit to be shipped to San Diego, and that all of the other evidence in the case and the other charges as well are tossed because the leo who recovered the balance of the evidence is finally found to have dirtied the chain-of-custody and then perjured himself (more fiction). The federal pros. drops the case, which then is brot by the state to take the farm. (Kormorn takes the case, more fiction), The only usable evidence agaisnt Jerald is the tractor trailer load of blister-packaged seeds. When the jury votes not guilty, the pros. appeals. The COA, of course, convicts for reasoning no one can decipher, and Jerald appeals to the Michigan Supreme Court, which now considers the question incidental to all of the facts (but not incidental to all of the admissable evidence).

In this fictional, convoluted fasion we arrive at a review of the coa's interpretation of 'incidental seeds.'

Once a jury votes not guilty the matter is settled. Pros can't appeal an acquittal.

[phaquetoo]

If you have seeds in your budds on the plants you dried and cured, and you dont get the seeds out of the budds it will most definatly count towards the weight, do you realy beleive leo is going to pinch all of the seeds out before they weigh your finished product,

 

but if you have seeds in all of your budds you prob should not grow lol, you most def should check into how you polinate only a part of your plant,

 

if a pt was to have 2.5 oz's and it was loaded with beans that made the weight an 1/8 of it or what ever it will be counted as weight, if you just have a nice collection of seeds not in budds but in a storage bag or wte it dont count,

 

seeds in the budds count as weight! and so does the stems in them big cola's, unless you strip all seeds and stems from your finish usable mmj it will count as weight, and if your plants are hanging and still wet they count the moisture also, if they are not supposed to, well tell that to the people who have been dragged thru the court for it already!

 

a stupid example,  if a pt has 3oz's of meds in jars and the seeds and stems weigh a 1/2 oz you will be charged for the 3 oz's no popo agengy or court is gonna sort all of the seeds and stems out of the finished product, that is what the pt or c.g needs to do, yes I know that dont happen, but if it did you would be over your usable weight if they were still attached to the useable/budds

 

That is what I read in the simple language of the law.

 

im playing devils advocate here, its not like I have read of a case like this, but It would not surprise me if I did,

 

Peace

[trichcycler]

decades ago I knew a person charged with possession of "marijuana material, consisting of mostly sticks and seeds".

I would expect  leo to confiscate(^{rhymes with}) a sweet collection of authentic breeder seeds.