Convincing The Skeptical

[+washtenaut]

I was on a non cannabis (sports) message board recently that is centered in New York state.  There was a thread on marijuana, likely because NY recently approved medical cannabis.  After reading a few pages of stoner name calling, myths, and misconceptions, I felt compelled to post and try to educate a bit. 

 

Feel free to correct any of this where I have erred.

 

I am posting just in case you have the need to try to convince skeptics.  Feel free to use any of this.  Email at will....lol   Also, if you have any similar things that you've used to help convince, please post them.

 

 

 

 

 

I know NY recently approved medical cannabis and I thought I would post some helpful information as in Michigan we have covered much of the same ground in the last few years.

It is apparent that many posting here don't believe that cannabis can be real medicine.  That is understandable given that was what we had been taught for our entire lives.  Please try to have an open mind.  I promise you that you will learn a great deal.

I am selling nothing but I feel like I should try to spread this knowledge.  No joke.

Please, if you know anyone with a chronic illness, check out this video.  It will be worth it.  The first couple of minutes are not representative of the rest of the documentary.  You needn't watch the whole hour in one sitting.  It is simply amazing

https://www.youtube....h?v=XfO_MpDm5kc

Here is one of the postings from the recent marijuana thread here.  I hope the links work.


Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:49 AM

Medical Cannabis has been legal in Michigan for several years.  It can be a very effective medicine which has few side effects when compared to many prescription medicines.  Anyone taking medication long term knows that you have to be able to tolerate the side effects of the medication in order for it to help.  If you think that there are no medical benefits to cannabis beyond preventing nausea, you really need to read some more recent research because you truly could not be more mistaken.

Cannabinoids are molecules found in cannabis.  There are about 85 discovered so far, only 1 of which is the much feared THC.  Cannabis is effective in treating so many medical ailments because the cannabinoid molecules from the plant are nearly identical to molecules created within our own bodies called endo-cannabinoids.  Through recent research we have learned that the body creates an entire network of endo-cannabinoid molecules and cannabinoid receptors in order to transfer messages between cells.  The similarity of plant and animal molecules is merely a coincidence of nature but one that allows the plant to stand in and to supply the missing messenger molecules if needed.

When there is a disruption in the body's ability to create endocannabinoids, important signals don't get through and a whole host of health problems can develop. The missed message may be to stop feeding a cell that is scheduled to die.  If the cannabinoid molecule is not present to pass that signal along, cells may not die when they are designed to and they can divide and metastasize out of control leading to a cancerous tumor.

The message that is missing may be to slow down the number or rate of signals to a brain or peripheral nerve cell. Perhaps they are overloaded.  This is what can happen with epileptic seizures or chronic pain from damaged nerves.  Missing messages can affect nearly every organ in the body.

See the website from GW Pharmaceuticals  http://www.gwpharm.com  and go the 'R&D' tab at the top.  See the 'Product Pipeline' and the 'Therapeutic Areas' sections on the left.  You very well may be amazed at the medical possibilities.  By the way, this company's stock, GWPH on the Nasdaq, is up about 10 fold in the past year or so.  Those are real dollars betting on the potential medicines to be extracted from the cannabis plant.

 

A Glossary to Help in Deciphering the Research Studies

Thanks to poster 'in vivo' at the Michigan Medical Marijuana Association board, here is a glossary of terms with wiki links.  The research reports that I linked to above use a lot of unfamiliar terms, at least to most of us.  You might find this helpful.

http://michiganmedic...44364-glossary/

If nothing else, please take the time to scan just the table of contents from this 2006 research report on the therapeutic possibilities of cannabinoids.  It may be information that would allow you to help a sick friend or relative, or possibly even yourself.

http://pharmrev.aspe...9.full.pdf html

 

Mentioned among many other maladies are diabetes, Parkinsons, arthritis, cancer, Alzheimers, asthma, IBS, hypertension, and psychiatric illness.  This report is from 2006 and we have learned a lot since then.  More research is desperately needed but it appears very promising that cannabis may be able to treat many illnesses.

It makes some sense that many diseases that have confounded researchers over the past 75 years are linked to cannabinoids.  Due to governments' prohibition of cannabis, research on the plant and cannabinoids have basically been forbidden for those same 75 years.

[Restorium2]

Play the football commissioner card when you are among sports fans. Look for his youtube video talking about medical cannabis. It's our bridge.

[Restorium2]

Here's something to get a positive conversation going;

 

There's a recent medical study that shows that mice that get concussions recover quicker, and more fully, when they use medical cannabis to treat the injury. Maybe a lot of our heros wouldn't be in such bad shape if they would have treated with Marijuana? Think about Mohammad Ali for example. Football stars with dimensia because of the head impacts can be prevented by them using medical marijuana.

[t-pain]

good post wash, its often difficult to show people facts about marijuana.

they get overwhelmed easily. what do you mean its good for 12+ diseases?

no other medicine on the planet is good for more than 2 or 3 diseases.

 

theres a lot of unbelievable medical scientific facts about marijuana. thats the darn problem , marijuana is too good.

how can it be good for epilepsy AND chronic pain AND PTSD ?

now you're saying it can shrink tumors AND kill cancer cells? are you high?

 

so thats my theory. marijuana is too good and there isnt another medicine available that can come close to compare it to.

 

epilepsy and cancer, they are completely different! theres no way one medicine can work on both.

Edited July 20, 2014 by t-pain

[+washtenaut]

It sounds waaaaaay too much like the late night info-mercial miracle product.

 

Modern Science is floored!  Call Now!  Just $19.95.  Call Now.  Operators are standing by.  Call now.

 

But Wait, there's more!  If you call in the next 10 minutes...... lol

[Norby]

I had to teach my wife who is a biochemist.  She said it CAN'T cure cancer(technically it's not a cure, I know) since cancer is a multitude of different things(causes) and giving the wrong thing can make it worse for some and better for others.  she outlined metastacism and I showed her the part on the GPR55 receptor site.  When I showed her the science on creating apoptosis and cb receptors she said, wow, I hadn't thought of that and it makes sense.  Even a PhD had to be walked thru it.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Norby

[t-pain]

everyone has to be walked through it.

you just have to have patience to talk to people. hateful people. people who would narc on you in a second.

[+washtenaut]

In response to a 'Yeah, but smoking it can't be medical'

 

 

With all we have learned regarding the hazards of cigarette smoking, smoking medicine seems crazy.  It is counterintuitive but recent studies are showing that cannabis smokers have no greater risk of head, neck, or lung cancers than do non-smokers.  There are carcinogens in cannabis smoke, many of the same ones as in cigarettes, but cancerous tumors do not seem to develop.

The other point concerns dosing.  As a medicine, cannabis fell out of favor in the early 1900's because of dosing difficulties due to the variability from batch to batch.  With the variety of strains, differences within the crop, and differing processing methods, consistency in tinctures and extracts was nearly impossible to achieve.  Doctors could not be certain that their patients were being given the proper dosing instructions.

Back to smoking....when ingesting by taking small puffs you are getting near immediate effect.  Did it relieve my pain?  Yes, then stop.  No, take another puff.  You are able to take a very accurate dose this way.

When you ingest an extract or eat an infused medible such as a brownie, you must wait for about 90 minutes or so to know if it is the proper dosage.  The usual reason someone takes a stronger dose than they wanted is because they ate the medicine and it is difficult to know the proper dose until you have used it a few times.  Uniquely, cannabis cannot kill with an overdose so one can safely learn their proper dosage through trials.  

A cannabis overdose can surely scare a new user though.  Cannabis concentrates are extremely powerful.  The patient may get nervous thinking that they took too much and now are going to die, but that is just imagination and anxiety working together.  Help them to relax and the effects will soon pass.  The anxiety attack is why people end up in the emergency room.

So, for immediate relief and for titrating dosage, smoking works very well.  The unexpected surprise for me was that it doesn't increase the lung cancer risk.

[Hydraulic Jack]

I think I'd hold off on referring to a "cannabis overdose"...Overdose brings up visions of addicts dying....HJ

[Restorium2]

Smoking pot does have medical effects. No doubt about it.

The spokesperson for the Michigan State Police testified to the Michigan Legislature just last week. They clearly stated they have no problem with medical marijuana if YOU ARE NOT SMOKING IT.

BOOM. Houston, we have a serious problem with The Michigan State Police following the law here in Michigan. I think they need a memo or something.

[+washtenaut]

Smoking pot does have medical effects. No doubt about it.

 

The spokesperson for the Michigan State Police testified to the Michigan Legislature just last week. They clearly stated they have no problem with medical marijuana if YOU ARE NOT SMOKING IT.

 

BOOM. Houston, we have a serious problem with The Michigan State Police following the law here in Michigan. I think they need a memo or something.

 

I am unsure of that mouth swab technology.  Does that detect cannabis that has been ingested, say in pill form? 

 

The police may be playing the 'we can detect it if smoked so we can arrest them on the road' angle

[Restorium2]

I am unsure of that mouth swab technology.  Does that detect cannabis that has been ingested, say in pill form? 

 

The police may be playing the 'we can detect it if smoked so we can arrest them on the road' angle

No. I think it only detects cannabis if the cannabis came in contact with your mouth.

 

They want to eliminate smoking as medical. They made that clear. I'm not sure what gave them the idea that they could go so far out there like that. These bills pending? But that's where they are at as of last week. They seem to want to say, "Shut up and eat your cannabis if you want to pretend you are medical". That's not going to fly when smoking cannabis has medical benefits too.

[+washtenaut]

Hmm, what about differentiating from oral tinctures? 

 

Yeah, that's the ticket, officer!  It was that oral tincture that I keep in the case in the trunk.

 

 

 

You'd think with all the knowledge out there from battles in other states, we wouldn't have to fight this ignorance everywhere. 

 

What about people with nausea, stomach cancers, feeding tubes, or swallowing problems?  Of course smoking can deliver the medical compounds. 

 

That should be all that is in question for patients, not whether Officer Smith can determine with a swab how you ingested the medicine.

[trichcycler]

they could soon force us to stick our marijuana right up our Asz !

[+washtenaut]

they could soon force us to stick our marijuana right up our Asz !

 

That is certainly going to be the point when I stop sharing

[trichcycler]

I think I'd hold off on referring to a "cannabis overdose"...Overdose brings up visions of addicts dying....HJ

dumb down for the protection of others? 

[jointedone]

Hey grass,actually,medicines inserted into the rectum and anus work quicker. Just take my word for it and don't axe me to splain how I know this.

[trichcycler]

Hey grass,actually,medicines inserted into the rectum and anus work quicker. Just take my word for it and don't axe me to splain how I know this.

I know this also, which 'splains my humorous tongue in cheek approach

[+washtenaut]

I thought this might educate some too and make it easier to accept.

 

 

 

Many folks are unaware that cannabis has been used as medicine for about 50 times longer than it has been prohibited by the US Government.  Once you know that it has been called medicine in the past it might be a little easier to accept now as medicine for some people.

See these excerpts from the US Pharmacopeia dated 1900.  These are instructions as to how to make an extract of the ground up cannabis plant.  This is remarkably similar to the method shown on that video where Rick Simpson 'washes' the cannabis with a solvent and then boils off the solvent.

The plant was outlawed and vilified in the 1930's and pretty much all research halted then.  The American Medical Association opposed the prohibition at that time because they feared that research would be halted on the plant.  They were right.

http://antiquecannab...dix/USP1900.htm

 

A pre-prohibition (pre 1937) look at cannabis in the USA.

http://antiquecannabisbook.com

[+washtenaut]

And I guess I really messed up posting this one, based on responses, but my heart was in the right place.  I guess it is hard to believe that your doctor might not actually want you healthy unless it was his advice that got you there.

 

 

I don't want to preach but there is something that tripped up a lot of patients in Michigan when the medical cannabis initiative passed here.  Yes, it was a 2008 ballot initiative in Michigan that won 63% to 37%

Anyway, be careful in discussions with your doctors.  It sounds odd to say because generally they are such experts and we confide in them, but most doctors were taught only about the harmful effects of this in med school.  Also, consider that most doctors were studious and weren't necessarily the most streetwise and so didn't learn a lot about cannabis growing up.  Add in the fact that very few pharmaceutical companies are pushing cannabis based solutions.  Doctors, with few exceptions, are not experts on cannabis based solutions.  Many are very opposed.

Don't talk about your usage or desire to use cannabis until you have felt them out a little.  Maybe the old, 'I have this friend that was talking about using cannabis to treat...' would be a good approach.  If you decide to try to have a frank discussion come armed with copies of research abstracts and copies of links to recent reports.

Be prepared for resistance and I hate to say it, but be prepared to hear astounding ignorance stated very confidently.  From their viewpoint I think they feel that they are the experts and so if they are not aware of the cannabis option, it is just some internet fluff or worse, an attempt to secure drugs from them.  They may even label you a 'drug seeker'.

Many patients found out the hard way here in Michigan that even though the state laws changed, the doctor or more often his/her practice or hospital, had an anti-cannabis policy.  Many patients were dropped outright for admitting that they used cannabis to treat the same condition their doctor was treating.  Others with doctor monitored opiate dependencies were forced into periodic pee tests and if testing positive for cannabis and/or negative for opiates, were cut off from their opiate prescriptions.  Sounds insane but that was not uncommon at all.

[jointedone]

Only my PCP knows I am a MMJ Pt. And he only knows because he is 31 and a Resident with dreads,and going back to Canada after he takes his boards. I did not and will not tell my new Gastro D. Too scared to tell her, I don't know her feelings on the subject yet.

[+washtenaut]

Courtesy of drugs.com

Side effects of vicodin, just for comparison purposes:


Some side effects of Vicodin may not be reported. Always consult your doctor or healthcare specialist for medical advice. You may also report side effects to the FDA.
For the Consumer

Applies to acetaminophen / hydrocodone: oral capsule, oral elixir, oral liquid, oral solution, oral syrup, oral tablet
Along with its needed effects, acetaminophen / hydrocodone may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking acetaminophen / hydrocodone:
More common

• Dizziness
• lightheadedness

Incidence not known

• Back, leg, or stomach pains
• black, tarry stools
• bleeding gums
• blood in the urine or stools
• blood in vomit
• bluish lips or skin
• chills
• choking
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decrease in the frequency of urination
• decrease in urine volume
• difficult or troubled breathing
• difficulty in passing urine (dribbling)
• difficulty with breathing
• difficulty with swallowing
• fast heartbeat
• fever
• fever with or without chills
• general body swelling
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• irregular, fast or slow, or shallow breathing
• light-colored stools
• loss of appetite
• lower back or side pain
• nausea or vomiting
• nosebleeds
• not breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• pale or blue lips, fingernails, or skin
• pinpoint red spots on the skin
• puffiness or swelling of the eyelids or around the eyes, face, lips, or tongue
• severe or continuing stomach pain
• shortness of breath or troubled breathing
• skin rash, hives, or itching
• sore throat
• sore tongue
• sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• tightness in the chest
• unable to speak
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• upper right abdominal or stomach pain
• yellow eyes and skin

Get emergency help immediately if any of the following symptoms of overdose occur while taking acetaminophen / hydrocodone:
Symptoms of overdose

• Bloody or cloudy urine
• change in consciousness
• chest pain or discomfort
• cold and clammy skin
• decreased awareness or responsiveness
• extreme drowsiness
• general feeling of discomfort or illness
• increased sweating
• irregular heartbeat
• lightheadedness, dizziness, or fainting
• loss of consciousness
• no blood pressure or pulse
• no muscle tone or movement
• not breathing
• severe sleepiness
• slow or irregular heartbeat
• stopping of heart
• sudden decrease in the amount of urine
• unconsciousness
• unpleasant breath odor

Some side effects of acetaminophen / hydrocodone may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine. Also, your health care professional may be able to tell you about ways to prevent or reduce some of these side effects. Check with your health care professional if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome or if you have any questions about them:
More common

• Drowsiness
• relaxed and calm
• sleepiness

Incidence not known

• Belching
• changes in mood
• difficulty having a bowel movement (stool)
• fear or nervousness
• feeling of indigestion
• hearing loss
• impaired hearing
• pain in the chest below the breastbone
• unusual drowsiness, dullness, tiredness, weakness, or feeling of sluggishness

[phaquetoo]

I am unsure of that mouth swab technology.  Does that detect cannabis that has been ingested, say in pill form? 

 

The police may be playing the 'we can detect it if smoked so we can arrest them on the road' angle

or they just want all of our dna! a swab test to see if you smoked or injested mj oh and to put you in the lein or what ever system felons dna is in, man I would do all I could to not let them swab me>  I would just not open my mouth lol!

 

Peace

[jointedone]

Dang Phaq,I never even thought of the DNA thing. And who gets to see any of your blood results from a hospital? I see the Dr. Dreads guy for the last time friday then he is off back home to Windsor. The new one is his boss and a snotty little punk. Man I hate short guys that wear bowties and act like YOU as a pt don't know crap. I've been sick longer than he has been alive. Betcha he is anti mmj too. Not that I am going to ask him............Dr Dreads told me that about him. They don't give Interns and Residents any kind of knowledge about MMJ at Wayne State. Most Drs think they write you a RX for it.Except the ones that charge you 200 bucks for your referral. Getting kinda sick of that too. I have never trusted Drs. for ANYTHING. And have NEVER asked for anything for pain. This new guy makes you feel paranoid as soon as he walks in the door.  ICK

[+washtenaut]

I tried the pet angle too..... but still they don't love me over there   lol

 

The board tenants are making calls looking for more tar and feathers.  Wonder what that's all about?

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

OK, if you have watched or read about cannabinoids and cannabinoid receptors, you now know that they are in animals too, including pets.

After the jokes die down, if you have an older pet with health issues, it may be worth further research.  Note, I am not any sort of medical professional.

If your pet is tolerating its medicine well and it is effective, certainly do not change anything.   At this point my non-professional opinion would be to consider this option when there isn't really much else that your vet can do.

DO NOT FORCE SMOKE INTO YOUR PET'S FACE.  I am talking about cannabis based medicines, such as glycerin tinctures, for pets, especially pets nearing the end of their life.  Or, the concentrated oil can be smeared onto treats or even right onto the teeth of a pet that has no appetite.  It will be absorbed through the tissues in the mouth as it melts.  Capsules can easily be made from the concentrates if your pet can take them.  Start with the tiniest of dosages and work up to an effective dose.

Why, would anyone do that to their pet, right?  Well, as with people, it largely has to do with positive effects and lack of negative side effects.

The big three positive effects I suppose are pain reduction, appetite stimulation, and restful sleep.  As with people too, an animal will need a few doses to get used to the medicine and may lose some coordination with the initial doses.  Be careful around stairs or drop-offs.  Watch the animal until it falls asleep.  If given a large dose be watchful as the pet could wet the bed.  They sleep very soundly and typically wake up, go outside to do some business, come in, and head to their food bowl.

I guess it shouldn't be all that surprising that veterinarians haven't started reusing it as medicine, at least the vast majority of them.  Few enough doctors believe in the benefits and people are telling them directly.  Not many dogs are talking, even after ingesting cannabis.

I want to mention one, certain to be doubted effect that I witnessed first hand.   The concentrated cannabis oil, when repeatedly applied over the course of a month or two, can shrink mast cell tumors on the skin of a dog.  My dog, due to anesthesia problems could not withstand more surgery.  I had read about this cannabis possibility, had the oil on hand, and so started melting my dog's leg tumor over the course of six weeks.  

When I returned to the same vet that had refused to remove the growth under a local, he was very surprised and wanted to know what I had done.  I only took the dog to clean the wound because  it now appeared that he was going to survive for a while and I was afraid that it might get infected.  After cleaning up the wound area, the vet said, "the growth was now hanging on by a thread, so I removed it and sewed it up"  

Several months later I had to put the dog down.  Eventually his problems compounded and I couldn't take watching the struggle.  On his last morning before our ride to the vet however, he had a good appetite.