Our Section 8 Defense And Court Drama...

[ozzrokk]

Yes gl MM........... Even though sec. 4 carries more protections does not give the system a right to disregard sec. 8 at will and that is exactly what is happening here............ I also do not think we can honestly say that clearly if MM had been registered with the state that this would not have happened. The court that made up the chit about the Dr/Pt relationship would have likely made up some chit about the sec.4 protections as well. Would leo have let it go with the card? Sometimes yes and sometimes no, so who could say.

 

Edited to add that let me be clear I DO advocate for registry over not registering but also agree it is not and should not be necessary. It was voted on that way.......... But why let little things like that get in the way ehh?

Edited August 12, 2014 by ozzrokk

[MiMedical]

Thanks you guys, I also agree with registering with the state, no excuses here.. We have had multiple follow-ups to establish the "bona fide relationship", years of medical conditions, hands on in person evaluations, no over the phone renewals, my wife and I have sat down and spoke with this dr over a year now, he's a great dr, we have a ton of faith in him, he may not be our PcP, but he is professional and we have faith in him.. I would like to keep names out of this till the dismissal, it will be dismissed, we just have to play the game is all... Again, stay safe and good health to all!!

[mibrains]

you have an excellent attitude MIMed

 

Great Job !

 

keep your head up and do not let them boggle your brains...

 

i appreciate you keeping us informed.. we all need constant reminders to stay safe and "off the radar"

[GregS]

Thanks you guys, I also agree with registering with the state, no excuses here.. We have had multiple follow-ups to establish the "bona fide relationship", years of medical conditions, hands on in person evaluations, no over the phone renewals, my wife and I have sat down and spoke with this dr over a year now, he's a great dr, we have a ton of faith in him, he may not be our PcP, but he is professional and we have faith in him.. I would like to keep names out of this till the dismissal, it will be dismissed, we just have to play the game is all... Again, stay safe and good health to all!!

Do you have copies of the Doctor's clinical notes to enter into evidence in support of your sec. 8 motion? Is your Dr. willing to testify if need be?

Edited August 14, 2014 by GregS

[bobandtorey]

[trichcycler]

seems you've kept most of your hair, at least up to the video shoot.....

[bobandtorey]

seems you've kept most of your hair, at least up to the video shoot.....

Lol 

 

Thanks

 

People do need to see it because they will have a chance to see what they are up against in Oakland County at least Doctors do not like Court and  willing  to testify for the op most will not but some may say they will until the day comes

Edited August 14, 2014 by bobandtorey

[MiMedical]

Do you have copies of the Doctor's clinical notes to enter into evidence in support of your sec. 8 motion? Is your Dr. willing to testify if need be?

Yes we do, and yes I'm sure he will, we also have prior medical records from our primary care physician, who passed away in 2013.

[phaquetoo]

I wish you the best mm, Thank you for keeping us informed!  I to hope all charges are dropped!

 

Peace

[GregS]

Yes we do, and yes I'm sure he will, we also have prior medical records from our primary care physician, who passed away in 2013.

You've already spent $5K?

[Dr. Bob]

Section 8 is VERY expensive. 

 

Dr. Bob

[Highlander]

Yes - many folks seem to believe that a Section 8 defense is simple and requires only a little paper work and some testimony at a hearing.  I wonder what it would cost to have the Dr. take a day from his practice to provide testimony. 

 

A couple of years ago, I was involved in a contested case hearing with an administrative law judge.  The guy on the opposing side had two engineers drive from Clare to Lansing for the hearing, wait a few hours, testify, then drive home.  After the second engineer testified, we had a break, and in the hallway, the guy on the opposing side turned to me and said "there goes $3000."

[MiMedical]

Yes, that's my wife and I, and that's with a break...

[MiMedical]

Yes, that's my wife and I, and that's with a break...

And by the time trial arrives, it will double that, I'm sure.. And we make payments to him, thankfully..

[Dr. Bob]

To answer your question Highlander, it is about $3500 a day, even if the hearing is rescheduled or a plea is taken.  and that is for every day the doctor has to schedule in court, testify or not.

 

That is the cost of the doctor, add to it the cost of the attorney and the cost of spending 2 years going through the court system, both emotionally and financially.  That is why those of us that actual are involved in the cases STRONGLY support section 4 to avoid them, and get upset with wannabee jailhouse lawyers that try to promote section 8 as an alternative to section 4 or insist that their 'notarized contract' somehow makes the very real costs of the hearings go away.

 

Section 8 is a powerful thing in the hands of a well prepared patient and a good lawyer, and may offer protections.  But it is by no means a valid game plan to base your participation in the MMMA.  It is a defense after you have been arrested to try and justify what you did.

 

Dr. Bob

[Highlander]

To answer your question Highlander, it is about $3500 a day, even if the hearing is rescheduled or a plea is taken.  and that is for every day the doctor has to schedule in court, testify or not.

 

That is the cost of the doctor, add to it the cost of the attorney and the cost of spending 2 years going through the court system, both emotionally and financially.  That is why those of us that actual are involved in the cases STRONGLY support section 4 to avoid them, and get upset with wannabee jailhouse lawyers that try to promote section 8 as an alternative to section 4 or insist that their 'notarized contract' somehow makes the very real costs of the hearings go away.

 

Section 8 is a powerful thing in the hands of a well prepared patient and a good lawyer, and may offer protections.  But it is by no means a valid game plan to base your participation in the MMMA.  It is a defense after you have been arrested to try and justify what you did.

 

Dr. Bob

 

 

So that's $3,500 to the Dr. for a day and hope one day is enough.  And another $2,000-3,000/day or so for a competent attorney to show up (not to mention hours prior to the hearing).

 

Then we can expect some other expert witness who can testify as to growing cycles, plant yields, etc.  to help justify the quantities.  And it seems that there isn't a guaranteed assumption that the courts will be good with 2.5 oz./12 plants per patient in a Section 8 defense.  Just as the Section 4 requirements can't be imported into Section 8 (per COA ruling), there is no precedent that provides for importing Section 4 quantities into Section 8.  In other words, a patient with 1oz and 6 plants is still likely to be required to demonstrate that the usable MJ and plants were not more than needed to ensure an uninterrupted supply. 

 

So we have a Dr. charging $3,500 for a hearing, a lawyer charging $3,000 +/-, and an expert witness (even at the bargain price of $70/hour plus expenses) charging $600 or so.  That's about $7,000 just for the day of the hearing - not to mention probably $5,000+ in legal fees to get there and quite likely $1,000+ for bail/bond.

 

So: 

 

Section 8 defense attempt, $13,000+

 

Section 4 protection: $225 +/-

[MiMedical]

The price of freedom.

[Dr. Bob]

Highlander summed it up well.  Between section 4 and section 8 there is no contest.  I tend to agree with MiMed as well, it is the cost of pushing our rights, and in cases where it is the difference between conviction and dismissal, well worth it.  But unless independently wealthy, it is a lot to spend to make a point.

 

Dr. Bob

[GregS]

Highlander summed it up well.  Between section 4 and section 8 there is no contest.  I tend to agree with MiMed as well, it is the cost of pushing our rights, and in cases where it is the difference between conviction and dismissal, well worth it.  But unless independently wealthy, it is a lot to spend to make a point.

 

Dr. Bob

Soooo, we should open our wallets and let you dig in.

 

Bringing cases forward that clarify the power of the Affirmative Defense will help us all. Costs are substantial. Whether fighting for the clear provisions of the law is a good bargain is at issue. John Ter Beek thought it was.

[Dr. Bob]

Doesn't have anything to do with me.  Your point is moot.  I really don't care to waste time debating you, the information presented here by several people, including the one ACTUALLY IN COURT is pretty clear and confirms what I've said all along.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Now if you are done trolling the Section 8 thread because you want to talk about something else, we can get back on topic. 

[Dr. Bob]

Cool comment Zap.  And how much do you charge?  What is a day out of my practice worth?  By the way, of the several cases I've had for you and Mike, how much have you paid me again to cancel my clinics for the day? 

 

Here, let me help you, not one dime.  I did it for your (Mike's) clients as a courtesy.  I find it rather unbecoming you would come on here as an administrator and berate me for charging for my services, especially given the considerable amount of donated time I've given your firm and many others in this state, not to mention the indigent patients I've not only certified, but appeared in court for.

 

Trish is very disappointed.

 

Dr. Bob

[FranksHotPeppersAndMarijuana]

I once had a psychologist retained for a court case. It cost $1800 for him to prepare and then a flat hourly rate for court that wasn't in 15 minute increments. If you went 1 minute into the next hour is was the whole hourly rate. I don't remember the rate because I didn't end up needing him to testify because it settled. Yes, you guessed it, a divorce.  But the hourly rate was in the hundreds and that was quite some time ago. I don't have a clue what doctors charge but this is my experience for what it's worth.

[trichcycler]

Cool comment Zap.  And how much do you charge?  What is a day out of my practice worth?  By the way, of the several cases I've had for you and Mike, how much have you paid me again to cancel my clinics for the day? 

 

Here, let me help you, not one dime.  I did it for your (Mike's) clients as a courtesy.  I find it rather unbecoming you would come on here as an administrator and berate me for charging for my services, especially given the considerable amount of donated time I've given your firm and many others in this state, not to mention the indigent patients I've not only certified, but appeared in court for.

 

Trish is very disappointed.

 

Dr. Bob

 

 

You have testified on a patients' behalf at no cost ? Kudo's to you, evidently it could be difficult to even have one show up!

[Dr. Bob]

_{Not only have I testified for free in certain cases, I recently paid over $2300 out of my own pocket to pay for a patients' lawyer (and that was after giving him a free cert).  That is the reason I am so offended by Zap's comment.  They have certainly helped patients for free, but I would NEVER berate them publicly for charging for their professional services.}  

 

_{But common professional courtesy is just a difference of opinion sometimes, I guess.}

 

_{Dr. Bob}