Our Section 8 Defense And Court Drama...

[GregS]

What is your agenda? Kidney damage is a known side effect of ibuprofen. Continued use can cause chronic interstitial nephritis. It has a long list of other potentially serious side effects. Google is your friend. Cannabis is not toxic in any way. What is this case law you cite that disproves that? You brought it up, continue to spout off about it, but don't want to talk about toxicity?

 

I provided you with the pertinent sections of the MRE to explain the defense documents' admissibility as evidence. They are the court rules of evidence bright boy. You're just gonna hafta bite the big one and do some of that voracious reading you assured us is your method, and to include the forum archive. I won't repeat myself at length to satisfy anyone's laziness or harangue.

 

We are here to advance and advocate for the most liberal protections for cannabis use. Your agenda is clearly not that

Edited August 23, 2014 by GregS

[Restorium2]

Is that a legal or a medical opinion?  Personally I think Franks' response was well constructed and clearly made.  To say it doesn't make sense does him a disservice.  Your point on ibuprofen is well taken, do you have specific concerns about the rest of his comments?  

 

Dosages were well discussed the other night on Greentrees.  They are there to define the effective dose and the toxic dose.  They are also 'helpful' to try and explain reasonable dosages to those that don't know anything about the subject, such as the court.  As long as they are presented as 'rough guidelines'  I believe there is a place for them in the overall strategy of Section 8.

 

Dr. Bob

The effective dose verses the toxic dose varies greatly from patient to patient. One patient may need four times as much as another. Even ten times as much. I have noticed this escapes a lot of doctors with just about every thing they prescribe. I have a very hard time convincing doctors I only need a quarter of a darvacet. It seems as if they want a universal dosage for everything. I always awake puking after surgery because the doctors overdose me. They will not listen to a patient. Medicine is an art more than it is a science. People are unique. You can't pound a square peg into a round hole no matter how much you want to make your job easier with uniformity. The situation we find ourselves in with the court and dosage uniformity, even rough uniformity, is a symptom of ignorance and laziness among prescribing doctors. In other words, the judges like your mistakes and we will pay again for it by their ignorance to know about the art form of medicine. It's not a body weight math calculation. A patient is the decider of their dosage of cannabis because they are the only ones who can. Sorry, there's no uniformity among patients' cannabis dosages. It's not going to be that easy, because it really isn't that easy. That's learned by observations of a huge number of patients and many years of paying attention to them. Edited August 23, 2014 by Restorium2

[Restorium2]

As to the ibuprofen: Universal toxic dosage is over 3200 mg. Toxic dosage for me is around 1000 mg. Universal dosage is really a farce with most medications. Every doctor has to know that already, unless they are a terribly bad listener. To set a legal limit for any medicine is medical malpractice to appease a judge.

[imiubu]

Well stated Resto, thank you.

[beourbud]

The effective dose verses the toxic dose varies greatly from patient to patient. One patient may need four times as much as another. Even ten times as much. I have noticed this escapes a lot of doctors with just about every thing they prescribe. I have a very hard time convincing doctors I only need a quarter of a darvacet. It seems as if they want a universal dosage for everything. I always awake puking after surgery because the doctors overdose me. They will not listen to a patient. Medicine is an art more than it is a science. People are unique. You can't pound a square peg into a round hole no matter how much you want to make your job easier with uniformity. The situation we find ourselves in with the court and dosage uniformity, even rough uniformity, is a symptom of ignorance and laziness among prescribing doctors. In other words, the judges like your mistakes and we will pay again for it by their ignorance to know about the art form of medicine. It's not a body weight math calculation. A patient is the decider of their dosage of cannabis because they are the only ones who can. Sorry, there's no uniformity among patients' cannabis dosages. It's not going to be that easy, because it really isn't that easy. That's learned by observations of a huge number of patients and many years of paying attention to them.

Right On

[t-pain]

I should leave them where they lie so that unsuspecting patients can read them on here and think that a section 8 hearing is a slam dunk. Then they may as well just rely on section 8 since it is so easy. Since all you have to do is present unrebuttable prima facie evidence. That is easy to establish with just the patient himself testifying because the prosecutor cannot rebut it according to him. So no need for a doctor or anyone else. The patient can just mosey on into court and tell his story and the judge will have no choice but to dismiss the case. That is super easy and I wonder why so many people are having trouble with it.

in most posts where i present legal theories i like to mention that i am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. do i think my own theory will be 100% correct? no. i am awaiting the michigan supreme court ruling in hartwick and tuttle , and will follow their interpretation of the law.

 

tpain after I proved him wrong by quoting directly from the exact case he selectively quoted from to try and support his opinion.

hmm i thought we were arguing about research studies where you thought i quoted out of context.

i dont remember you quoting any case law. got a link?

[bobandtorey]

Thank Mr.T-pain

 

 awaiting the michigan supreme court ruling in hartwick and tuttle , and will follow their interpretation of the law.

 

IMHO after the Court gives us another  road map it won't be as clear as we think and we may need a GPS 

[Wild Bill]

And even on top of that, you are ignoring that the law itself requires that possession only be of an amount necessary to alleviate the condition. So the law presupposes that the amount is no an unlimited amount just because a patient decides that it isn't toxic.

Where do you see that the law requires possession of only the amount needed to alleviate the condition? If one only needed 1/2 gram daily wouldn't that mean any possession greater than that would be illegal? As opposed to the 2.5 ounces?

 

I have run across cancer patients who required two grams of oil daily and needed a pound to process in order to keep supplied with medicine. I think this might be what you are referring to when you mention possession of an amount needed to alleviate the condition.

 

I don't think I've ever run across anyone who determined their dosage based on perceived lack of toxicity.

[GregS]

Where do you see that the law requires possession of only the amount needed to alleviate the condition? If one only needed 1/2 gram daily wouldn't that mean any possession greater than that would be illegal? As opposed to the 2.5 ounces?

 

I have run across cancer patients who required two grams of oil daily and needed a pound to process in order to keep supplied with medicine. I think this might be what you are referring to when you mention possession of an amount needed to alleviate the condition.

 

I don't think I've ever run across anyone who determined their dosage based on perceived lack of toxicity.

There is no requirement in the law that requires no more than an amount needed to alleviate a condition, but rather enough to provide an uninterrupted supply. That is no minor distinction, The shelf life if kept with care is several months long. Do the math. If a user consumes a zip a month, and their production can create a year's worth of meds at once and not require continuing production throughout, then by sec. 8 standards, 12 oz. meets that requirement.

 

Toxicity is so low as not to be a consideration.

[Norby]

Better put a ceiling on aspirin.  Should it extend into st. john's wort, alcohol, caffeine and the like too?  Geez too much water can be toxic.  Gotta start limiting those glasses of water.  Limit on MJ is actually more ludacris than any of those.  As much as needed to alleviate the affects of the condition.  That's a well rounded # isn't it?  Oh I forgot, judges don't understand it.  Gotta make it easy for the judges and cops.

 

How come I can stock my house to the hilt with alcohol but not MJ.  One is much less toxic than the other and actually cures things, not cause them.  A little perspective is in order here.  May not be strait to the question but just some useless information.

[imiubu]

This idea needs to be eliminated!

Stop trying to put even more restrictions on mm.

I have been using cannabis for over 4 decades,

I do believe that myself and other patients can

very well decide our own limitations.

What exactly are you bucking for here doc?

Are you trying to secure yourself a solid place

inside the courtroom? smh

 

This is an interesting concept- as needed up to a certain amount.  I would thing a recommendation or some guidance on what that ceiling amount would be, and so long as the patient did not exceed (without a defendable reason) that amount, it would be helpful in court.

 

Dr. Bob the idea of ceiling on the medication is mine and not attributable to Neil Rockind. I pointed it out as a flaw in Rockind's position. He basically states that there should be no limit and he says why should there since OTC medication is use as needed. I am pointing out that his argument is a bad analogy because even though ibuprofen may be use as needed, it isn't technically use as needed because it has a ceiling as to limit.

 

Shame on you Frank.

Edited August 25, 2014 by imiubu

[MiMedical]

This idea needs to be eliminated!

Stop trying to put even more restrictions on mm.

I have been using cannabis for over 4 decades,

I do believe that myself and other patients can

very well decide our own limitations.

What exactly are you bucking for here doc?

Are you trying to secure yourself a solid place

inside the courtroom? smh

 

 

 

Shame on you Frank.

Its medicinal, not decriminalized.. There has to be a max amount, or a "dosage" somewhere.. We can't go in a pre trial or a trial and argue with lawyers and dr' sand say I can have as much as I want because I have a mmj card.. I think Harwick tried that and it back fired, we can't all afford to be martyrs. That's my opinion..

[Restorium2]

Its medicinal, not decriminalized.. There has to be a max amount, or a "dosage" somewhere.. We can't go in a pre trial or a trial and argue with lawyers and dr' sand say I can have as much as I want because I have a mmj card.. I think Harwick tried that and it back fired, we can't all afford to be martyrs. That's my opinion..

Case by case of course. Just like patients, each one is different. You know how much you need, tell them.

[Norby]

I'd love to be able to stock up 3-5 months worth for my patients and shut down to just mothers for a while to get some stress relief/vacation.  I just can't work under these conditions.   Do pharma companies have to limit the amount of oxy they can make or can they store it up for a while?

They never worried about these things when they were cranking out oxy all those years.  Why can pharma cause the problems they do and they focus on us?  Only way people's lives are ruined by MJ is the incarceration part.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Norby

[MiMedical]

Case by case of course. Just like patients, each one is different. You know how much you need, tell them.

I hear that, but I think if we tell our Dr's an amount of cannabis we use, an the form that works to alleviate the pain or symptoms will benefit us, I'm not trying to put words in people's mouths.

 

Yes, it is certainly a case by case issue for sure, but I believe if we try and tell our Dr that we use/need 2lbs a month, I think that is kind of a ball buster in court.. For example if it was just one patient, no caregiver and usable meds.. Idk, we have our Sec8 redo again today, in about an hour.. We hurt, and are exhausted.. We will have our Doc on Skype for the bona fide relationship, our amounts are minuscule.. Hopefully thing go good and are finished today..

[MiMedical]

I'd love to be able to stock up 3-5 months worth for my patients and shut down to just mothers for a while to get some stress relief/vacation. I just can't work under these conditions. Do pharma companies have to limit the amount of oxy they can make or can they store it up for a while?

They never worried about these things when they were cranking out oxy all those years. Why can pharma cause the problems they do and they focus on us? Only way people's lives are ruined by MJ is the incarceration part.

Lol, god theory!

But it isn't Oxy, in the states and governments eyes it's a schedule 1 with more harmful effects..

[GregS]

Aww, I think Frank is gone. He went over to riu whining about all of this and criticizing the MMMA. The members there roundly b!tch slapped him.

 

But hey. It was fun while it lasted.

Edited August 25, 2014 by GregS

[bobandtorey]

I'd love to be able to stock up 3-5 months worth for my patients and shut down to just mothers for a while to get some stress relief/vacation.  I just can't work under these conditions.   Do pharma companies have to limit the amount of oxy they can make or can they store it up for a while?

They never worried about these things when they were cranking out oxy all those years.  Why can pharma cause the problems they do and they focus on us?  Only way people's lives are ruined by MJ is the incarceration part.

I agree why should you as  the grower have to work 24/7 just to stay on top of your patients back inn 2009 some people here where putting stickers on their jar's with dates of when  there cannabis would be ready 

 

 IMHO Some cannabis can take months to cure   but/and drying can only take days 

[bobandtorey]

I hear that, but I think if we tell our Dr's an amount of cannabis we use, an the form that works to alleviate the pain or symptoms will benefit us, I'm not trying to put words in people's mouths.

 

Yes, it is certainly a case by case issue for sure, but I believe if we try and tell our Dr that we use/need 2lbs a month, I think that is kind of a ball buster in court.. For example if it was just one patient, no caregiver and usable meds.. Idk, we have our Sec8 redo again today, in about an hour.. We hurt, and are exhausted.. We will have our Doc on Skype for the bona fide relationship, our amounts are minuscule.. Hopefully thing go good and are finished today..

  i may be late but Good luck today

 

P.S 

 

How did it go today ?

[MiMedical]

It wasn't necessarily a victory, but our charges were dismissed..

[MiMedical]

All and all, since it's said and done and I wanted/want people to learn from my mistakes, get your physical hard card, continue a relationship with a reputable Dr. Don't tell anyone, don't meet your neighbors, hire a good lawyer prior to any seeds being sprouted, and this is just from a patient, not even a CG. I have no intentions on growing until I'm retired, and I can get down the stairs in a wheelchair. This isn't legal advice, just what I suggest.. Thanks everyone for the support and so much information, great site, love it. Now I can devote my time into supporting other victims. One last thing, don't talk to the police.

[GregS]

All and all, since it's said and done and I wanted/want people to learn from my mistakes, get your physical hard card, continue a relationship with a reputable Dr. Don't tell anyone, don't meet your neighbors, hire a good lawyer prior to any seeds being sprouted, and this is just from a patient, not even a CG. I have no intentions on growing until I'm retired, and I can get down the stairs in a wheelchair. This isn't legal advice, just what I suggest.. Thanks everyone for the support and so much information, great site, love it. Now I can devote my time into supporting other victims. One last thing, don't talk to the police.

Glad you are at a point where you can move ahead. 

[MiMedical]

Glad you are at a point where you can move ahead.

Thank you Greg, we are excited and exhausted at the same time!

[MiMedical]

I would like to give a special thanks to, Dr.Bob for always being there, Chad, Michael Komorn for the unbelievable support, Planetgreentrees for all the education and emotional support every Thursday, it's like therapy when you're being dlcked by the system, and our lawyer Marc Curtis. THS, Maria Greene, and all the other victims who were about to take a plea but dug in and stood strong. Thank you guys, even everyone on MMMA forums, I have read this thing in and out, it's helped tremendously!!

[ozzrokk]

Glad to hear it Mimed........... too bad you had to go through it. Such a shame............ But glad you got through it my friend.