I Want To Become A Full-Time Caregiver

[trichcycler]

A.O.T.A  ^^^^

(all of the above) hehe

[shishka]

To the OP, if you are comfortable with a little risk you can absolutely be a full time caregiver. I have friends that do and and are reporting incomes of six figures to the IRS. Depends what you're comfortable with...

[trichcycler]

what ? (with 5 patients?) that's 6.5 oz per patient per month @ $250 per. seems impossible to do, who has 1200 dollars monthly for medical marijuana?

 how are they legally reporting income to the feds involving the illegal distribution of marijuana ?

Edited September 21, 2014 by grassmatch

[Wild Bill]

To the OP, if you are comfortable with a little risk you can absolutely be a full time caregiver. I have friends that do and and are reporting incomes of six figures to the IRS. Depends what you're comfortable with...

And I can give you the name of a good criminal lawyer.

[Wild Bill]

suckers are awsome smoked, I clean them so thuroughly and smoke them,

 

I love to smoke suckers, but they're hard to keep lit and burn uneven.

[Sledge]

I love to smoke suckers, but they're hard to keep lit and burn uneven.

lolol

[imiubu]

LOL! Thanks for the chuckles Wild Bill !

Edited September 21, 2014 by imiubu

[jointedone]

Back atcha lady or whatever you are. Sneaky,aren't you?

[saiamne]

Thanks for the continuing input all

 

To clarify a couple points:

 

I have no interest in circumnavigating the legal boundaries of an operation. I wish to operate in full compliance with the law. That's why I'm here asking questions. I want to understand how lawmakers are interpreting the law. As I read the laws I don't see anything prosecutable about 6 licensed CGs / 6 addresses / 6 gardens / 30 patients, with one individual providing maintenance in each garden. 

 

I used the term "greenhouse" casually. I would be growing in a sealed, insulated, temp/humi controlled indoor garden. I thought I mentioned growing up in Michigan - I am well aware of the weather and its relationship to plants in the open.

 

I'm not stupid and I'm not trying to establish some shady criminal enterprise here. The fact is, Colorado law is perfectly compatible with what I want to do and offers much greater income opportunity. I'm interested in Michigan because I like it, but if the state can't offer me the opportunity to support my family as a farmer / caregiver there's no reason to pursue it. I don't want to get rich or grow 1000 lbs, but I should be entitled to gather a reasonable income for providing a necessary, and now legal, service.

 

RE: Jerry Duval - as far as I can tell from the court filings and information I can find on the internet he absolutely should have been arrested. I'm obviously a major supporter of medical marijuana and compassionate access but if I were an officer of the law I would arrest him without the barest moral twinge.

 

Maybe I'm missing some facts here but what I see is that a convicted felon was reporting income of $275,000 to government accountable financial institutions without filing tax returns or having any actual income attached to his SSN. He made huge cash expenditures (which are required by law to be reported to the IRS) in order to expand production capacity and delivery capability. There were hundreds of plants in multiple facilities on one addressed property. Marijuana could be seen, unobscured to the naked eye, growing on his property. He had guns - lots of guns, LOADED guns - with the marijuana. Commercial processing equipment was present. Product was prepackaged for distribution. No records or registration documentation showing Jerry as a CG or his clients as Patients. On arrest he admitted that he was allowing other individuals to produce marijuana for profit on his property.

 

Given these facts it is apparent to me that Mr. Duval was a criminal engaged in criminal enterprise who gave testimony to those facts to the arresting officers. Despite his lawyers claims, he was not attempting to follow Michigan's medical marijuana laws and knew that he was not. I see no way that his actions can or should be defended and feel no sympathy for him. I understand that it's the job of Jerry's lawyers to try to spin the facts and paint a picture of a poor sick man just trying to live without pain...but he was a felon making hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash, spending it carelessly, and casually breaking well known, clearly understood laws and propriety. What kind of idiot felon (granted most felons can probably be scientifically proven idiots) lets people see him growing marijuana, carrying guns, spending tens of thousands of dollars in cash then expects anyone anywhere to believe he wasn't committing any crime. Fool.

 

I hope he is made a clear example of so that people will actually endeavor (as I am) to follow the laws for medical marijuana production / care giving.

[trichcycler]

are you looking to be a landlord, with his own garden in house? renting out grow rooms to other legal growers? that may work out well. But if 6 cg's are growing for their own patients, I just don't see any room for you or any of them to make a living doing it, legally. The mj from your garden cannot find its way to any patient not registered to you(your five, or to any provisioning center, leaving you, and each other cg limited to the needs of five patients only. not adding up to minimum wage I'm afraid. good luck

[Wild Bill]

6 licensed CGs / 6 addresses / 6 gardens / 30 patients, with one individual providing maintenance in each garden.

 

I assume you mean six individuals each maintaining their own garden. Each caregiver providing only for their own registry connected five patients. No access to each others grow sites. No sales to patients other than their own. Each grower with separate incomes.

 

If that were the case then it would be legal. However, I agree with Grassmatch, I don't see how you could support yourselves on cannabis income alone.

 

The Michigan law seems to go out of it's way to make sure their is no real money to be made by anyone until the time comes for the large commercial Prairie Plant type ventures and state authorized "medical marihuana provisioning centers". Inspected, irradiated etc.

 

No green rush here.

[saiamne]

Correct. I would not allow any material into unregistered hands ever.

 

Where I'm working from in my consideration of this endeavor is this: I intend to live a quiet private life on ~80 acres of land regardless of where I move or what I ultimately do with my time and property. Somehow from that base I need to make probably $40-60k / year (above the marginal "income" provided by my VA disability) to support us - food, medical care, utilities, etc. Since exiting military service (honorably) I've had enough difficulty in the workplace and society in general to understand that I am not particularly suited to it. I really can't work traditional jobs and the environmental stressors surrounding me in the world I live in now is too much for me to be myself. I'm not the best husband, father, or individual that I can and should be now. So - how do I escape that trap and have 100% of myself to devote to my wife (who has cancer) and children aged 5-11. I don't know how I might proceed once I have the children to raise by myself.

 

I have the technical knowledge and ability to build and maintain all associated equipment myself. I have (nominally) the resources to acquire property and build facilities. I have horticulturally knowledgeable and accomplished friends willing to set up and advise, on-site for an extended period, while getting everything everything tuned up. I have access to strong, diverse genetics.

 

Growing as a caregiver where legal / profitable seems like an ideal solution for our entire family; in so many ways.

 

In the "go to MI and get 6 people" idea I would deed property to 5 of my relatives who would become licensed CGs with their own patient lists. On each property would reside an identical, secure, smallish, steel building with a garden designed to serve 5 patients. Being a good relative I would be happy to feed and water their plants and fix any problems with plumbing, electrical, etc. Being good relatives (that don't need any additional income) they may well drop money on my floor when we eat lunch at my house after attending church together on Sunday.

 

(I do not remember reading in MI law that the CG and only the CG was allowed access to garden.)

 

In the "go to CO" idea I would (after obtaining all legal authorizations to operate) build a 5,000 sq/ft facility on my property and establish a perpetual harvest of some select strains. I would drive to a city (or cities) once a month and trade medicine for cash, drive to home depot and trade cash for supplies, then drive home to heave a sigh of relief before going outside to play with my dogs.

 

The Colorado angle is much cleaner and easier in many respects. But I do like Michigan and have family there. I love that Michigan MM law is designed to connect CGs and Patients without allowing big commercial operations an opportunity for profiteering. I want to serve people, relieve suffering, and enrich their lives as directly as possible. Some of the state medical laws are ridiculously supportive (and immediately protective) of incredibly restricted major commercialization on few awarded contracts. I believe it's Illinois that will limit all production to 2 government contracts - who the hell let lobbyists do that? I think Minnesota only allows 5 growers for all state supplies?

 

And I want to try smoked sucker fish now - I never attempted to prepare or eat one before. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by saiamne

[Wild Bill]

(I do not remember reading in MI law that the CG and only the CG was allowed access to garden.)

R 333.101 Definitions.

 

(7) “Enclosed, locked facility” means a closet, room, or other enclosed area equipped with locks or other security devices that permit access only by a registered primary caregiver or registered qualifying patient.

 

This has been interpreted in the courts as meaning ONLY the person who has the card for that specific grow (patient or caregiver) is allowed in.

 

If you are the caregiver you are the only one allowed in the garden. No other caregiver is permitted access. Your patients are not permitted access.

 

Patients can only grow if their card says "YES" next to the Authorized to Possess Plants box.

 

For example, if I were caregiver to my wife, she would not be legally allowed in the grow room. If she were authorized to grow I would not be allowed in her grow room. Both rooms would need to be separate.

 

As it is now I am a patient authorized to possess plants and am the only person legally allowed in my grow room.

 

If you go out of town no one can come in and water the plants or tend them in any way. You cannot even let your patient into the room just to let them get a peek at what you are growing.

 

As far as I can tell once it's harvested you don't have to take any special precautions unless you are transporting in a motor vehicle.

 

While it is growing however it apparently has magic powers that with ensnare anyone who sees it.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Wild Bill

[Highlander]

Thanks for the continuing input all

 

To clarify a couple points:

 

I have no interest in circumnavigating the legal boundaries of an operation. I wish to operate in full compliance with the law. That's why I'm here asking questions. I want to understand how lawmakers are interpreting the law. As I read the laws I don't see anything prosecutable about 6 licensed CGs / 6 addresses / 6 gardens / 30 patients, with one individual providing maintenance in each garden. 

 

I used the term "greenhouse" casually. I would be growing in a sealed, insulated, temp/humi controlled indoor garden. I thought I mentioned growing up in Michigan - I am well aware of the weather and its relationship to plants in the open.

 

I'm not stupid and I'm not trying to establish some shady criminal enterprise here. The fact is, Colorado law is perfectly compatible with what I want to do and offers much greater income opportunity. I'm interested in Michigan because I like it, but if the state can't offer me the opportunity to support my family as a farmer / caregiver there's no reason to pursue it. I don't want to get rich or grow 1000 lbs, but I should be entitled to gather a reasonable income for providing a necessary, and now legal, service.

 

RE: Jerry Duval - as far as I can tell from the court filings and information I can find on the internet he absolutely should have been arrested. I'm obviously a major supporter of medical marijuana and compassionate access but if I were an officer of the law I would arrest him without the barest moral twinge.

 

Maybe I'm missing some facts here but what I see is that a convicted felon was reporting income of $275,000 to government accountable financial institutions without filing tax returns or having any actual income attached to his SSN. He made huge cash expenditures (which are required by law to be reported to the IRS) in order to expand production capacity and delivery capability. There were hundreds of plants in multiple facilities on one addressed property. Marijuana could be seen, unobscured to the naked eye, growing on his property. He had guns - lots of guns, LOADED guns - with the marijuana. Commercial processing equipment was present. Product was prepackaged for distribution. No records or registration documentation showing Jerry as a CG or his clients as Patients. On arrest he admitted that he was allowing other individuals to produce marijuana for profit on his property.

 

Given these facts it is apparent to me that Mr. Duval was a criminal engaged in criminal enterprise who gave testimony to those facts to the arresting officers. Despite his lawyers claims, he was not attempting to follow Michigan's medical marijuana laws and knew that he was not. I see no way that his actions can or should be defended and feel no sympathy for him. I understand that it's the job of Jerry's lawyers to try to spin the facts and paint a picture of a poor sick man just trying to live without pain...but he was a felon making hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash, spending it carelessly, and casually breaking well known, clearly understood laws and propriety. What kind of idiot felon (granted most felons can probably be scientifically proven idiots) lets people see him growing marijuana, carrying guns, spending tens of thousands of dollars in cash then expects anyone anywhere to believe he wasn't committing any crime. Fool.

 

I hope he is made a clear example of so that people will actually endeavor (as I am) to follow the laws for medical marijuana production / care giving.

 

You can't just read the act and walk away with the knowledge you need to operate in Michigan.  You also need to understand case law as established in multiple published higher court rulings.

 

The operation, as you describe it, is a legal disaster waiting to happen, not only because of the plant possession thing, but the idea of, "Being good relatives (that don't need any additional income) they may well drop money on my floor when we eat lunch at my house after attending church together on Sunday."

 

I don't know you and am not criticizing you, but you might want to rethink your attitude towards MMJ.  Out of one side of your mouth you say that what Duval did was definitely illegal, he knew it was illegal, he evaded taxes, and you'd throw the book at him yourself.  But you also say that your relatives/CGs might drop money on the floor in exchange for you helping with their grow.  So you have your own line that you are willing to cross...as long as you can come up with some cute idea "I didn't get paid, my bro dropped money on the floor."  This is one of those wink-wink things that the participants think is a super clever way around the law but amounts to a really bad idea. 

 

I wonder if you were planning on declaring that "dropped" money as income?  I mean, you don't want to be an awful criminal like Duval.  Remember when you file your taxes you can't claim deductions for your expenses for growing a Schedule 1 controlled substance.  So you'll be paying taxes on the entire gross income from your sales, which would be what, about $24,000 on $60,000 in income.

 

You plan has legal and financial problems.  Give it a couple of years, and maybe MI will be ripe for this.  But not right now.

[trichcycler]

..."there's always barber school"

[+Malamute]

Making $10,000/yr of off disabled patients is almost unheard of.  That is more than many make in total.  Getting Thirty patients is almost impossible.  It isn't as easy to pick up patients as people make it seem. 

 

 It is supplemental income at best. Most patients I see buy 1 oz/month or less. Many have no money at all.  Maybe 50 bucks a month in disposable income; which you will feel like an asss taking.

 

If the dispensary bill passes,.... then ya can sell overages to dispensaries for some really cheap price, but will ikely come closer to the money number you are suggesting.

[jointedone]

Good wishes to you, saiamne. Go for it.  Since when and who does a CG report his extra income from growing to? Should you be giving your pts a receipt each month? Will you take a check? Since I am a legal pt,shouldn't I be able to include the monthly cost of my mmj along with my traditional meds? Oh wait,you DON'T HAVE TO at this time. Al Capone got caught by the mighty IRS,not the cops.

[shishka]

Good wishes to you, saiamne. Go for it.  Since when and who does a CG report his extra income from growing to? Should you be giving your pts a receipt each month? Will you take a check? Since I am a legal pt,shouldn't I be able to include the monthly cost of my mmj along with my traditional meds? Oh wait,you DON'T HAVE TO at this time. Al Capone got caught by the mighty IRS,not the cops.

You report to the IRS so you don't get Caponed.

[trichcycler]

you cannot report the cg income unless you choose not to divulge the type of business you run. If you make that choice its called money laundering.

[phaquetoo]

I dont like to do this on here, but here goes, if all of your pt's are also c.g's and have a full card, they can supply their pt's with your grow, they can only have a mich lb at a time after leaving your presense, the key is not to let your pt's leave with more than they are legaly allowed, so you would have to either do many drop offs or pick ups a day to stay legal, if you get caught dropping off a mich lb (15 oz's) to one pt, you will need an attny, so their is still risk involved, but it can be done legaly, a c.g who has or dont have grow rights can still aid the pt in getting there allotment of meds!

 

I have thought about this, but to many people have big mouths!

 

best of luck!

 

Peace

[trichcycler]

If it is proven that you as a cg are growing more than what you own five patients are needing(to supply others' needs?) then said cg not operating within the law.

 

What would the charge be if I dropped off 5 ounces to my patient legally allowed to possess 2.5 ounces(or what ever is needed by them?). They are in violation, not me.

The law says the onus is on them to possess no more than 2.5 ounces. I see nowhere that states it is my responsibility to make sure they abide(?)

 

(devils advocate only, as I, like you, have no desire to exploit the program for cash) I am in love with the idea of being totally responsible for my own multi use medicine, from seed to spark, and this program allows me to do just that, trouble free.

[jointedone]

How far does responsibility go? How does anyone know what someone does with their meds or anything else when they leave the premises? That goes for RXs too. The Dr and Pharmacist don't know what you might do with your rx when you leave the store. You may sell them. You may take the whole bottle and kill yourself. People have to owe up to their own bad judgement.

[Highlander]

Responsibility goes at least as far as what you KNOW and maybe as far as what you should know. 

 

But at any rate, with regard to the question posed by GM, the requirement for the CG to limit his drop-offs to 2.5 oz is actually quite clear in the law:

 

(b) A primary caregiver who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for assisting a qualifying patient to whom he or she is connected through the department's registration process with the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act. The privilege from arrest under this subsection applies only if the primary caregiver presents both his or her registry identification card and a valid driver license or government-issued identification card that bears a photographic image of the primary caregiver. This subsection applies only if the primary caregiver possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed:

(1) 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana for each qualifying patient to whom he or she is connected through the department's registration process

 

If a CG is caught transferring 5oz. to a patient, then there is sufficient evidence to show that the CG possessed an amount of MJ that exceeded 2.5 oz. for each patient.  He possessed 5 oz. for that patient, so he loses his section 4 protections.

[Habenero]

Don't forget that if you transfer 2.5 to your patient every single day then good luck convincing a jury that you were only doing it to meet the patient's medical needs.

 

The Dr might not be responsible for your pills once prescribed but scheduled meds have a prescription limit. If you go into the Dr office every week and say you dropped your pills in the toilet and need another prescription you better believe the dr would be held liable if he kept prescribing a month worth of pills every week. And sumpthin tells me that even if your local prosecutor can't get ya for a 2.5 transfer every day to your patient that kind of case may end up in federal hands where the mich. law ain't gonna help ya bro.

[Highlander]

Don't forget that if you transfer 2.5 to your patient every single day then good luck convincing a jury that you were only doing it to meet the patient's medical needs.

 

The Dr might not be responsible for your pills once prescribed but scheduled meds have a prescription limit. If you go into the Dr office every week and say you dropped your pills in the toilet and need another prescription you better believe the dr would be held liable if he kept prescribing a month worth of pills every week. And sumpthin tells me that even if your local prosecutor can't get ya for a 2.5 transfer every day to your patient that kind of case may end up in federal hands where the mich. law ain't gonna help ya bro.

 

Bingo.  Recall the federal DOJ memo that discouraged prosecution for MMJ folks in "unambiguous compliance" with state law.  Daily deliveries of 2.5 oz. would seem to fall into the "ambiguous" category at best.