So What About The Jury Verdict?

[Habenero]

they should have taken him to trial to be convicted/exhonorated.

 

anything less is crap.

 

zimmerman got a trial.

thats all anyone wants, just a trial. 12 peers.

The grand jury isn't less than a trial.  It's a lot more.

A grand jury is a jury of 12 of your peers.  They on need 3/4 of them to agree to indict.  A trial jury requires all jurors to agree to convict.

A grand jury hears a lot more evidence than a trial jury because even hearsay evidence can be presented to the grand jury.  A trial jury can't hear hearsay evidence except for some exceptions.

There is no defense attorney at a grand jury proceeding so the grand jury is only influenced by what the prosecutor says or tells them.

A grand jury only needs probable cause to indict someone but a trial jury needs beyond a reasonable doubt to convict.

A grand jury can actually request any other evidence it wants to see.  A trial jury can't do that.

 

So it is loads easier for a grand jury to indict than it is for a trial jury to convict so if a grand jury can't indict then sending the case to trial is basically useless.

[solabeirtan]

First I've heard so far about his Mj use but apparently according to more questionable evidence and testimony it is a contributing factor. Unbelievable. Most of us are aware of the unlikeliness of anybody 'under the influence' of cannibus is going to become violent towards a cop. Reefer madness lives on as well as racial discrimination. Truly signs of atavism?

------------

BBC Story:

"Ferguson: Did prosecutors focus unduly on marijuana?

By Anthony Zurcher

Editor, Echo Chambers" 

[phaquetoo]

well now they shot a 12 yr old in cleveland!

 

I just got my oil changed and put a new battery in at wall mart,,,I was looking at the b.b guns, my son loves to shoot at chipmunks and target practice, He is gonna be 16 this summer, even though we live in a small communty I worried about the lil pistols they look just like real guns!  I totaly thought to myself that my boy may wind up getting killed if he carries something like that to a friends or any where, Naturaly I have rules and he would be allowed to take it to a friends, I cant be with him every second of his life,,,I was about to leave the b.b gun Isle and a young guy maybe 17 or 18 asked me about some littly hand guns that totaly looked like glocks!  I said yea I was looking at them but didnt think it to be a good idea to get my son one,,,,he went into a littany of they shouldnt sell these and cops will kill kids with these real looking b.b guns!

 

The very day we have that conversation (me and some one I dont know) I get home and it is on the news that a 12 yr old got killed by cops, the kid was yeilding a glock b.b gun, just like one of the guns I had in my hand at wall marts!

 

It is not like when I was a kid If a cop see's a gun that looks real and it it being pointed at you....well I would think had I been the cop arriving on the scene most likely I would have shot the person also!

 

Please dont take that wrong, this was a 12 yr old boy, it is horrible this happened,, parents need to make sure these kids dont have them kinds of things, especialy parents who live in not so good of a neighbor hood, and they already think life is not on their side!

 

If I shot a 12 yr old, it wouldnt matter what the circumstance I would have a real hard time dealing with that and I cant even put my feet in leo's shoes!  this one is a real hard one to judge, the 911 operator didnt tell the cops what the caller said a few times .(the gun seems to be fake) had that info been related to the 2 knuckle head cops I would like to think things would have turned out differently!

 

Dont buy your kids hand b.b guns unless you live on a farm or have a few acre's,

 

Lets keep our kids safe!

 

Happy Thanks Giving!

 

Peace

[t-pain]

 

So it is loads easier for a grand jury to indict than it is for a trial jury to convict so if a grand jury can't indict then sending the case to trial is basically useless.

not useless. it stops the riots. keeps the peace.

[t-pain]

First I've heard so far about his Mj use but apparently according to more questionable evidence and testimony it is a contributing factor. Unbelievable. 

 

 

they brought up the marijuana use in treyvon martin and that poor girl who got her face shot off in detroit for knocking on a door.

 

its basically 'they used marijuana so it doesnt matter if they died, because they were a worthless drug addict' mentality.

[t-pain]

well now they shot a 12 yr old in cleveland!

 

I just got my oil changed and put a new battery in at wall mart,,,I was looking at the b.b guns

 

 

even looking at or holding a gun in a walmart is a bad idea (if you are black)

 

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/24/3571699/grand-jury-wont-charge-cops-in-wal-mart-killing-even-as-video-reveals-victim-never-pointed-his-gun/

 

A grand jury decided not to file charges Wednesday against police officers who shot and killed 22-year-old John Crawford III inside a Beavercreek, Ohio, Wal-Mart for carrying a BB gun. They rejected charges of not just murder, but also reckless homicide and negligent homicide, finding instead that there was no probable cause to charge officers with anything. One of those officers is already back on the job.

[Sledge]

https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/licensed_to_kill_the_growing_phenomenon_of_police_shooting_unarmed_cit

[cristinew]

There's video if him robbing the store.

that vid  is not him robbing the store, they paid for the cigars,  the argument with the clerk came in after they paid,  Also if he did rob the store there would be charges on his friend now wouldn't there be?  Also  they do not want the store clerk to talk for some reason , because it will debunk the robbery theory 

[Mickeydee]

Looks more like the clerk is being warned.  Why would the clerk try and stop him if he was a paying customer?

[cristinew]

While it is difficult to be 100% certain, the video appears to show Brown purchasing some cigars, but lacking the money for the amount he wished to buy. Brown seems to  purchase some cigarillos, pay for them, attempt to buy more, then replace the ones he could not afford.

The confrontation between Brown and the clerk may have been because Brown impatiently reached across the counter. Perhaps it was wrong for Brown to shove the employee (it is impossible to know what words were exchanged) but this footage seems to exonerate him. It is important to note that Brown only shoved the clerk after he put his hands on him.

[cristinew]

There's video if him robbing the store.

No there is not,

[Natesilver]

 

While it is difficult to be 100% certain, the video appears to show Brown purchasing some cigars, but lacking the money for the amount he wished to buy. Brown seems to  purchase some cigarillos, pay for them, attempt to buy more, then replace the ones he could not afford.

The confrontation between Brown and the clerk may have been because Brown impatiently reached across the counter. Perhaps it was wrong for Brown to shove the employee (it is impossible to know what words were exchanged) but this footage seems to exonerate him. It is important to note that Brown only shoved the clerk after he put his hands on him.

 

 

That is total BS. Watch the video you posted. At about 0:17 he reaches in and forcefully grabs a whole case of swishers, a bunch fall on the ground, then he hands the remainder of the box back to the clerk, grabbing everything off the floor and leaving. At the moment the clerk runs out trying to stop him. At best, you are being intellectually dishonest. He robbed the store, then committed aggravated assault against the clerk.

 

Not that I approve of Wilson's actions- he should have found a nonlethal alternative to handle the matter. I don't understand why LEO would not be required to carry a taser and only be left with the option of killing a suspect.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Natesilver

[phaquetoo]

 

While it is difficult to be 100% certain, the video appears to show Brown purchasing some cigars, but lacking the money for the amount he wished to buy. Brown seems to  purchase some cigarillos, pay for them, attempt to buy more, then replace the ones he could not afford.

The confrontation between Brown and the clerk may have been because Brown impatiently reached across the counter. Perhaps it was wrong for Brown to shove the employee (it is impossible to know what words were exchanged) but this footage seems to exonerate him. It is important to note that Brown only shoved the clerk after he put his hands on him.

 

look at that pic and than look at his graduation pics,,,,,,,you cant tell me he looks like the same clean cut kid..Im sorry no one should die for a cig, but people need to know you cant try to get a cops gun away from him if you dont want to die!

 

cops are not trained to wound a suspect, they are taught to shoot at the chest, the chest has the most vital organs and will have the best chance of killing some one, they dont shoot at heads (to lil of a target) and they dont wound some one, if they do it means they didnt hit what they were aiming for,,,,,,unfortunatly cops are trained to kill if they have to pull out their guns,,,,they are not trained to wound!  I dont like that the cop said his taser was to bulky to carry though, something should be done, po po needs a dress code, including what weapons they have to carry, and that cop could have tased that big fella!  but he didnt and a grand jury felt there was no reason to bring up charges!

 

If I am not mistaken usualy a prosecutor decides if there is enough evidence to charge some one for a crime, and a grand jury is also to do the same thing!  I dont think the outcome would have been any different either way!

 

Peace

[Willy]

You can't be that accurate with a handgun.  Very hard to hit a moving target with a handgun let alone hit a small moving target. 

 

I disagree , nothing a little practice wouldnt do, aren't they supposed to spend regular course practice? (yes they are), you should watch some shootists with those supposedly  inaccurate handguns.. I deer hunt with mine. succesfully.. dont you own or ever use a handgun.. likely not with that comment.. no offense but if you think that is true,, your sadly mistaken and need to practice a bit.... small target , he was 6.4 230 something  that isn't small.. just sayin 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgfa81jBcto

Edited November 27, 2014 by Willy

[Restorium2]

Most of us would like a solution.

 

That would be for cops to not be stupid. I mean come on. Call for back up and watch the suspect until you/they can use overwhelming non lethal force to detain and question. NOT get pissed because some big fella didn't follow your instructions to move to the sidewalk so you back up next to him so he can kick your arse. That was stupid and it cost the big fella his life. Pretty much sum it up for everyone? Poor training leading to a mistake? Put all the conjecture to the side and move forward with a solution. 

[Restorium2]

Pretty simple. Negligent homicide. But I understand it that cops can't be charged in Missouri like that. So we/they have to change that law first. 

[Willy]

Most of us would like a solution.

 

That would be for cops to not be stupid. I mean come on. Call for back up and watch the suspect until you/they can use overwhelming non lethal force to detain and question. NOT get pissed because some big fella didn't follow your instructions to move to the sidewalk so you back up next to him so he can kick your arse. That was stupid and it cost the big fella his life. Pretty much sum it up for everyone? Poor training leading to a mistake? Put all the conjecture to the side and move forward with a solution. 

Yup sums it up nicely.  Just another pig with an attitude..

[Restorium2]

Here;

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/11/24/why-ferguson-officer-wasnt-charged-a-look-at-use-of-force-doctrine/

[Habenero]

I disagree , nothing a little practice wouldnt do, aren't they supposed to spend regular course practice? (yes they are), you should watch some shootists with those supposedly  inaccurate handguns.. I deer hunt with mine. succesfully.. dont you own or ever use a handgun.. likely not with that comment.. no offense but if you think that is true,, your sadly mistaken and need to practice a bit.... small target , he was 6.4 230 something  that isn't small.. just sayin 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgfa81jBcto

That isn't true.  Maybe you're a particularly good shot.  The time it takes to draw, level, aim, fire is long enough as it is without trying to draw a bead on a moving leg, etc.  That's why they are trained to shoot in the chest like Phaq said.  Biggest target and more of a chance of hitting the target if your trajectory is slightly off.  This isn't the movies and the adrenaline and life/death emotional part is a little different than deer hunting.

 

I had a buddy from high school who was an Army Ranger.  He was taking a tinkle when on a mission in Iraq but still in supposedly friendly territory.  He was engaged at about 15 feet by an enemy soldier.  His M4 was slung over his shoulder to free up his hands (which never would've been the case if it wasn't friendly territory).  Luckily his hands were in a position to immediately draw his m9 berretta.  He got off 7 rounds before the "haji," as he called him, hit the dirt.  The insurgent was hit by 3 rounds fired by a buddy's M4 and not a single round from the m9.  This is a guy with more training than most any cop and a guy who was on his 3rd tour in Iraq.  He was humiliated for missing.  He was teased from then on out for being caught with his dick out both literally and figuratively.  He wasn't hit so he was lucky but the funny part of the story was that a common phrase used was "don't be caught with your dick out" and it wasn't meant literally yet he fit the bill literally and figuratively.  Luckily for him the insurgent's gun jammed and he didn't get a single round off.  Unfortunate part was that the insurgent was carrying an Amercian m16a2.  Our own weapons were used against us a lot in Iraq.

 

And yes I own several handguns and I range fire them plenty.  Never hunted with one though.

[Natesilver]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/25/legal-scholars-praise-ferguson-grand-jury-fairness/

 

Legal scholars praise Ferguson grand jury for fairness beyond the norm

 

 

Legal experts across the country agree that while the process that led to a grand jury's decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson for killing Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, was unusual, it was not unfair. Rather if it was anything unusual, it was in its fairness and openness.

Lawyers and academics told The Washington Times that, despite their personal opinions on the case, which has sparked riots over police brutality, St. Louis county prosecutor Robert McCulloch sought unbiased justice in presenting the jury with every piece of evidence and then making that evidence public.

"It was the most thorough grand jury investigation that I've ever heard of," said Stephen Saltzburg, a professor of law at George Washington University Law School.

Media outlets and supporters of Mr. Brown have said that Mr. McCulloch's prosecution was unusual because he did not go in with the goal of seeking an indictment in secret, as most prosecutors do.

But Richard Kelsey, assistant dean for management and planning at George Mason University law school, said that what makes this case more unusual is that Mr. McCulloch sought justice rather than an indictment.

"More recently everyone has head the statement that 'a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich,'" Mr. Kelsey said. "It is true that it is usually easy to get an indictment, but is that a just process? I would say no."

Legal scholars say that Mr. McCulloch's decision to release the evidence presented to the grand jury for public scrutiny was also unprecedented, since grand-jury hearings are usually shrouded in secrecy, both while going on and after the fact.

"Usually you don't hear what evidence they considered," Mr. Saltzburg said. "I give the prosecutor top marks in terms of transparency and accountability."

The Brown family and their supporters argue that if the prosecutor had championed harder for an indictment, a full trial could have led to a conviction. But lawyers say in this case, a strong push to indict Officer Wilson merely based on the easier legal standard of "probable cause" would have merely set up a trial where the prosecution likely would have failed to get a guilty verdict based on the much stiffer "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

"Even if you could have gotten an indictment, what good does it do to get an indictment and then have your case thrown out," said Gabriel Chin, a professor at the University of California Davis School of Law.

"You go ahead and do a weak grand jury presentation, but if you do it in a case that's actually weak, how are you going to feel when you are prosecuting a case that you really shouldn't be prosecuting," Mr. Chin said.

Lawyers say in general, grand jury cases are subject to pro-prosecution bias because a district attorney will try to summarize their case to obtain an indictment, possibly hiding some of the evidence. Meanwhile, the accused has no right to an attorney, to present evidence on his behalf, or even to know that his indictment is being considered.

"What you hope is that it's a neutral process, but it's not when you don't have anybody in there for the other side," said Lee Cox, a Texas-based criminal defense attorney and a former prosecutor.

Mr. Cox argued that in many cases where a grand jury is seeking an indictment for a police officer, the prosecutor will try to protect the officer.

"Officers hardly ever get indicted for anything. It's common of the prosecutor and the police, they are in law enforcement together. So the public's perception is that nothing is going to happen to the officer anyway because they are both in law enforcement," Mr. Cox said.

Criminal defense attorney Guy Fronstin agreed that there is an "incestuous" relationship between prosecutors and police in grand jury proceedings but admitted that in this case that relationship did not impede justice.

"The grand jury system is a one-sided Kangaroo Court, which virutally always indicts since jurors hear the prosecutor's version of events and rule without having ever heard from the defense," Mr. Fronstin said.

"However, due to the brotherhood between prosecutors and police officers, when a police officer is the target of a prosecutor's case, it is almost predetermined that the officer will not be indicted. The incestuous relationship between prosecutors and officers did not come into play in Ferguson because there simply was not enough evidence for the grand jury to find probable cause that Officer Wilson committed a crime; the grand jury got it right," he said.

Although the jury did not indict Officer Wilson on state homicide or other charges, the case is not necessarily over.

The federal government could charge Officer Wilson with civil-rights violations, and the Brown family can still bring civil lawsuits against Officer Wilson and/or the Ferguson police department

"The family could sue and get their day in court," said Mr. Saltzburg adding that although football star O.J. Simpson was actually acquitted of murder charges, he was still found liable for the deaths of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman in a lawsuit.

"I'd be surprised if they didn't bring [to a civil court] the public stance that they took that this was unjustified," Mr. Saltzburg said.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Natesilver

[t-pain]

i'm curious if any of the lawyers and prof quoted above actually read the evidence released?

 

i'm curious if anyone here has read the evidence released? i have not, anybody got a link to it?

[t-pain]

I read somewhere that Missouri law states that police have the right to use deadly force to subdue a criminal if it was believed a felony was committed.

 

 

curious it says the store was robbed, but in the video , assuming it was the kid, assuming he stole cigarellos, wouldnt that just be shoplifting? which is a misdemeanor, not a felony?

[Natesilver]

i'm curious if any of the lawyers and prof quoted above actually read the evidence released? i'm curious if anyone here has read the evidence released? i have not, anybody got a link to it?

 

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/

[Natesilver]

The rapper Pharrell recently had an interview in Ebony magazine, where he called out society at large as to why we aren't discussing Mike Brown's "bullyish" behavior when he robbed the liquor store. Anybody got a link to that? Let me see if I can find it

Edited November 28, 2014 by Natesilver

[Wild Bill]

Http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=e973b5a1587c