Full Legalization For Michigan Has Begun

[medicinejeff]

It is important to remember that the program is working well for the vast majority of patients and their caregivers, and is still growing after five years.

That's right! Show me the verbage for a person to asign another to grow thier 12 as well as the growers own 12... and you have my vote.

Lots of sick and sickest of the sick that can NOT do for themselves. Not to mention renters.

Edited April 4, 2015 by medicinejeff

[trichcycler]

I wonder who will be heard first, the sick who cannot grow for themselves, or the growers wishing to sell to them?

Edited April 4, 2015 by grassmatch

[Willy]

I wonder who will be heard first, the sick who cannot grow for themselves, or the growers wishing to sell to them?

I am thinking the growers that are wishing to sell to them..

[trichcycler]

right, so we go from balls out form with the patient rights paradigm, right into the new caregiver one of "hey, wait a minute, I want to preserve my right as a grower to sell to five people"


Food shelters are in great need of volunteers right now, for the remaining philanthropists among us who no longer grow marijuana for others.

[Indigro]

Grass... assume u can't for yourself, or dont want to, or tried & didnt do well w it. Who would u have do it?

[trichcycler]

I'd purchase it anywhere, perhaps as it always could have been?

If "legalized" I would expect sick children to have access to some form of gw cannabinoids for sure, from pharmacies like other countries now. Dispensaries or pharmacies might also carry some  patient gear for sale?  Heck, it's illegal now to sell it from a storefront yet this model is a "legitimate" business model. Brokered all over the place, insured, legally represented, and some are city/county, patient and caregiver, and even community supported and advertised. I feel they are here to stay and watch as the cream rises to the top.

[t-pain]

its easier to agree on things rather than disagree on conflicts.

 

so dispensary people and patients/caregivers need to agree on things.

which is exactly what the milegalize guys have done.

[Quadcarl]

I see dispenseries and caregivers both happy in the legal world, why not? I'm totally against the 10 large grows only to supply dispenseries, but apart from that it would be great for caregivers or personal growers to have somewhere legal to go with overages. The best cannibis by the best growers will be in demand and drive up quality.

 

 

Or am I just over medicated right now?

[Quadcarl]

Oh yeah, lots of people love dispenseries, they maybe only buy a 1/4 oz a month or maybe like the convenience or variety. Like em or not dispenseries are comin with legalization, it's how we allow them to be supplied we need to figure out and agree on in my opinion.

[medicinejeff]

right, so we go from balls out form with the patient rights paradigm, right into the new caregiver one of "hey, wait a minute, I want to preserve my right as a grower to sell to five people"

 

 

Food shelters are in great need of volunteers right now, for the remaining philanthropists among us who no longer grow marijuana for others.

 

You got it all figured out huh? Sarcasm isn't needed just sounds like you got yours and screw us other guys who don't. Buy it from who? and where? Some people have seriously sick patients like stage 4 cancer sick...so stick a sock in it will ya smarty pants?

 

Members have the right to come here and ask questions and begin to let the forces that be hear our words. And to do it without snarky comments that make YOU appear to be the one in it for yourself only

 

Edited April 5, 2015 by medicinejeff

[trichcycler]

so stick a sock in it will ya smarty pants?

 

Members have the right to come here and ask questions and begin to let the forces that be hear our words. And to do it without snarky comments that make YOU appear to be the one in it for yourself only

Precisely what I have done, when I made this comment to Willy.

 

 

buy it from who? same place they get it now, dispensaries, legalized pharmacy, liquor stores, whoever has the rights to sell it to them.

buy it from where? provisioning centers.

 

 

 

"I got mine" "stick a sock in it"......... We're talking about legalization and you wish to fight that with "preserving the rights of caregivers to sell weed to others"

 

I think we may just be on separate pages is all.

I believe that when marijuana is finally legal the people needing it will have a better chance of being able to acquire it. People will stop being raided and jailed, and the sick will no be afraid to step up to the counter for the purchase of a fat joint.  

 

Your scheme is exactly as it is this moment. raids, jails, arrests, illegal dispensaries...

I'm guessing fighting for "caregiver rights" just doesn't sound as earnest as "patients rights"

I'm also hoping your sign would say preserve patients rights to grow and possess, rather than caregivers rights to grow and sell?

[trichcycler]

I support full legalization. This may be the only way to end the jailing of sick people.  We have caregivers and patients registering now, yet, people are still raided, jailed and supporting the courts banks with this mess. Legalization could end that.

[t-pain]

zap, theres a lot of patients and caregivers who are scared (maybe rightly so) of legalization.

 

what are we learning from the other 4 states that have legalized?

maybe pgt can do a show about it. medical use in a legalized state.

Edited April 5, 2015 by t-pain

[Indigro]

Here's one bottom line truth... the smaller the grow, the greater the attention to detail & the better one is able to fully control the environment. This means the better the quality, assuming some degree of base competence.

 

The larger the scale becomes, the more difficult (&costly) it is to control the environment & the greater the work load becomes. This means the focus shifts toward 'good enough' and away from the best that one can do.

 

Problems that exist on a smaller scale are manageable. Problems on scale become nightmares. And when u factor in the absolute necessity to meet cash flow demands & remain solvent, you cant afford to gamble on the worst case scenarios. That means one does whatever they absolutely have to, no matter what... or they go belly up & die, all is lost. Economic imperatives drive all decision making & actions.

 

 

legalization or strictly medicinal, there is a certain need/demand for a certain volume. We can fill that demand w a bunch of smaller growers that can best manage a grow & focus on a clean, safe & quality product... or we can have a few massive commercial growers that are forced to make decisions exclusively based on cashflows & are so overwhelmed w the work load/problem mitigation that they are pragmatically forced to get by w a good enough approach so long as they can avoid the worst case scenarios.

 

The latter scenario means doing some potentially horrific actions such as utilizing chemical sprays, which can be entirely avoided w smaller, more manageable grows. And if we r looking at it from the perspective of really truly ill people... such as cancer victims, where we know chemical exposures likely cause cellular mutations, and that many of the commercial fungicides & pesticides are either known or suspected carcinogens... which model of supplying mj is best?

 

Right now we have that choice before us. If we give in & go w the flow... we will get the commercial model, and adulterated mj. If we go that route, it will basically become impossible to go back to the smaller model of growing. We've got the shot right now for a cleaner, safer product... and that model is the professional cg. It certainly isn't the commercial model... when talking clean & safe. And that level of quality should be expected for both the medicinal & recreational markets.

 

 

I'v been in & around & active w large scale commercial grows that go into the hundreds of lights per location. The things done in these places (and we r talking about people trying to do it right, not ghetto cartel grows) to meet six figure montlhky operating costs... it is effed up. People that spend hundrefs of thou eventually realize they needed to do it entirwly different, and should've apent over a million to do it proper... yet they r so invested that they have no other option but to do whatever they can to make it work.

 

I ask again... who do u want to grow ur meds? We have one shot at this, then its gone forever.

[trichcycler]

Indigro,

 

Would your scenario consider that once legalized, anyone can do as they wish ?  We wont need a doctor to prescribe alcohol, or basil either right. Nobody in their right minds would wish a commercial venture to produce their mj I agree with you.  But like every other food and herb some of us have choices to grow our own and buy locally, as opposed to the big store grows.

I find  curve in the industry is interesting. We go from recreational use wants, to legalized wants, to medical legalized wants, and back to recreational wants, and now we seem to be opposing legalization.

 

There were posters here last year willing to trade jail time and even life for legalization to end this fiasco. Do you wish to see what we have continue, or drop it all and see a free for all? I want to understand your point of view, not trying to argue at all.

[Willy]

 

Food shelters are in great need of volunteers right now, for the remaining philanthropists among us who no longer grow marijuana for others.

 Your right food shelters do have a need,, a need to give there food stuffs to the animals .. free for the hogs to eat.. the chickens,, did you not see the special, ?? food shelters giving out a small percent of the food because their requirments are so high not many qualify.. then off to the farmers to feed there livestock that we never see that is then   sold to the highest bidder... wow a windfall for the poor farmer. this is food that was not given out from a food bank.

 

So when mj is legal, from this that extra will go to the hogs and chickens , long before they "Give" to patients in need.. It will become a make every penny they can from any disp..  it wont be free, it will be controlled.. and to throw us a bone, of it  legal.. I don't believe it , its money that gov has finally got the eye on to control and line there pockets.... there will be no blessings for us, just new and improved ways of incarcerating us.. look and you can see.. this is bait and switch....legal is the bait...

Edited April 5, 2015 by Willy

[beourbud]

Your right food shelters do have a need,, a need to give there food stuffs to the animals .. free for the hogs to eat.. the chickens,, did you not see the special, ?? food shelters giving out a small percent of the food because their requirments are so high not many qualify.. then off to the farmers to feed there livestock that we never see that is then sold to the highest bidder... wow a windfall for the poor farmer. this is food that was not given out from a food bank.

Worked a food bank for the last 15 years ..gleaners/ second harvest. Your right , the requirements have changed and have drastically reduced the number of poor folk who qualify. Just like recent requirements for voter suppression.

Yes the repubs have devised a new scam to take food from the mouths of the poor and hungry and to divert that resource to their corporate farm accomplices.

 

The evangelical repubs have turned the Food Pantries into "NO SOUP FOR YOU" kitchens

How KKKhristian of them.

Edited April 6, 2015 by beourbud

[medmanmike]

Here's one bottom line truth... the smaller the grow, the greater the attention to detail & the better one is able to fully control the environment. This means the better the quality, assuming some degree of base competence.

The larger the scale becomes, the more difficult (&costly) it is to control the environment & the greater the work load becomes. This means the focus shifts toward 'good enough' and away from the best that one can do.

Problems that exist on a smaller scale are manageable. Problems on scale become nightmares. And when u factor in the absolute necessity to meet cash flow demands & remain solvent, you cant afford to gamble on the worst case scenarios. That means one does whatever they absolutely have to, no matter what... or they go belly up & die, all is lost. Economic imperatives drive all decision making & actions.

legalization or strictly medicinal, there is a certain need/demand for a certain volume. We can fill that demand w a bunch of smaller growers that can best manage a grow & focus on a clean, safe & quality product... or we can have a few massive commercial growers that are forced to make decisions exclusively based on cashflows & are so overwhelmed w the work load/problem mitigation that they are pragmatically forced to get by w a good enough approach so long as they can avoid the worst case scenarios.

The latter scenario means doing some potentially horrific actions such as utilizing chemical sprays, which can be entirely avoided w smaller, more manageable grows. And if we r looking at it from the perspective of really truly ill people... such as cancer victims, where we know chemical exposures likely cause cellular mutations, and that many of the commercial fungicides & pesticides are either known or suspected carcinogens... which model of supplying mj is best?

Right now we have that choice before us. If we give in & go w the flow... we will get the commercial model, and adulterated mj. If we go that route, it will basically become impossible to go back to the smaller model of growing. We've got the shot right now for a cleaner, safer product... and that model is the professional cg. It certainly isn't the commercial model... when talking clean & safe. And that level of quality should be expected for both the medicinal & recreational markets.

I'v been in & around & active w large scale commercial grows that go into the hundreds of lights per location. The things done in these places (and we r talking about people trying to do it right, not ghetto cartel grows) to meet six figure montlhky operating costs... it is effed up. People that spend hundrefs of thou eventually realize they needed to do it entirwly different, and should've apent over a million to do it proper... yet they r so invested that they have no other option but to do whatever they can to make it work.

I ask again... who do u want to grow ur meds? We have one shot at this, then its gone forever.

This is one powerful statement! My hat's off to ya.

[medicinejeff]

How is legal retail/provisioning possible with a 12 plants max law? Who will grow enough product? From what I understand, they can't grow it fast enough in Legalized states! And that's with these states allowing larger scale grows and stores growing huge amounts themselves. Who's gonna run a spot retail/ provision and keep it open and stocked with out a bit of large scale help? And so far I don't hear that.  I hear a meger 12 per soul rule.  Some one is keeping a jeanie in a bottle...I guess we'll see what details she holds when all is revealed once the Irwin sponsored language is told

 

BTW I hear quality has gone to sheet out in Colorado...large scale. Anyone else hear about the grower quality suffering in the madness of rushing it to market asap?

Edited April 6, 2015 by medicinejeff

[Indigro]

Jeff... yes, absolutely. And truth be told, ca had/has the same issue when they blew up. WA is going to be the same way, and IL is going to be the worst of the entire bunch as they took the most commercial route of anyone in the union. In any & all of the current mmj states, the small time cg/patient grows the cleanest, highest quality meds... period. it is universally true in all of the states. In fact, you never see those meds on the shelves of any of the dispos, primarily because there is so very little of it that when it does come in it immediately gets put in the back room where the owner & employees gobble it up amongst themselves & their close personal friends. And if there is any left over, it pops at 20-25 a g & is gone by the weekend. Most of what remains on the shelves is crappy, laced, commercially pumped out schwag that is produced by indiscriminate money hounds or incompetent nobodies. I like dispos, or the idea of them, but the truth is that quality (real quality) is super hard to find. And it is true here as well... I personally can smoke 3 other people's nugs, and that is because iv been in their rooms & know they do it right. I havent smoked dispo meds... well, never. I know where most of it comes, and how most of it is grown. Very, very rarely does the very best hit the shelves...

 

Which leads to your question of meeting the necessary volume...

 

Okay... bottom line... it ain't easy. Simply put, growing clean, pristine weed in volume is tough. Once you hit 40 lights the problems start escalating & can go wildly wrong. And running those 40 (perfectly clean) requires a great deal in both equipment & planning & procedures. It is a full time job & work... w a keen appreciation to detail. But once you get to 80, you almost have to spray... unless you manage to spend enough money to truly control such a large volume of space, and have the competence to run it properly, which is super rare... super, super rare. At that size, you spray or you have potentially catastrophic outcomes.

 

CO now has them in thousands of light counts per location... and they all spray religiously. And they still have problems, they just try to manage & limit them. Each & every crop produces a percentage of unusable mj, and the rest as passable, and not a single nug compares to the highest quality that comes from a 4, or 16 lighter. Not a nug. This is universally true... it is true for me just the same. I cannot put enough attention to each & every detail under 40 as I can under 16... true for any grower, ever. And under 80... one may not even notive the outbreak until it is already staged to spread & go nuts on the whole room. Under a thousand... well, you better be on the ball ahead of time & expect the outbreak.

 

The answer to volume is rather simple... we just need more people growing. Rather than have 100 massive producers, we need 2000 competent ones (or three, or four thousand). It wont be easy to get there (it requires work, time & experience), but it is very conceivable & doable. The state wont like it (because it requires more work for them to license & regulate), but it will have net benefit to the end quality & average consumer. We will have increased variety in addition to the quality. More people (the average small biz owner) will be included vs excluded to the enrichment of a few greedy ones. Each community will have hundreds employed & involved, where the money stays within that community & recirculates amongst most of the other small biz owners within the community. Money stays put & enriches many... just not any single entity becomes a multimillionaire at the expense of everyone else.

 

It ain't easy, but its a better long term goal we should be holding out for & working towards. It's an admirable goal. And it is certainly a realistic one, if we work towards it. How to meet the demand? Make the market inclusive to everyday people, not exclusive for a small few.

[Indigro]

Indigro,

 

Would your scenario consider that once legalized, anyone can do as they wish ? We wont need a doctor to prescribe alcohol, or basil either right. Nobody in their right minds would wish a commercial venture to produce their mj I agree with you. But like every other food and herb some of us have choices to grow our own and buy locally, as opposed to the big store grows.

I find curve in the industry is interesting. We go from recreational use wants, to legalized wants, to medical legalized wants, and back to recreational wants, and now we seem to be opposing legalization.

 

There were posters here last year willing to trade jail time and even life for legalization to end this fiasco. Do you wish to see what we have continue, or drop it all and see a free for all? I want to understand your point of view, not trying to argue at all.

Hi grass... no problem. Well, the only problem is that the whole of mj is somehwat complicated, esp when we factor in the politivs of the real world, and esp the ecominic assumptions we have embedded in society.

 

It's impressive to walk into 240 lights firing under a single roof, or a thousand. From where we come (an underground black market), it's almost 'cool' to see. I get that, but the luster has worn... seen too many unconscionable acts to feel good about seeing massive grows. Its cool at first, but the devil is in the daily details.

 

Unregulated biz, in our society, is a bad thing imo. We have to deal w the base human compulsions, or rather, we have to restrict them. People do all sorts of horrific things in the pusuit of self benefit. Fact of human existance. So letting that run amok...???

 

Do I feel big gov't is good, or particularly effective? Those negative human traits spoil good govt just as it allows for abuse in biz. But govt, imo, is the 'best' mechanism to handle such a thing as protecting people from other people. I dont know how else to do it.

 

And when we pragmatically talk about creating a new market w/in our existing society & economy, then we have to factor in govt licensing & regulation. And I can not disagree that self regulated biz has potentially horrific outcomes for the average person that lives within that society. As a simple example... I feel carcinogens shouldnt be sprayed on human consumable... so how do we protect from that? Govt regulation & oversight is the only way I can envision. We just have to set those rules for govt the very best that we can & hopefully elect & appoint competent people who share our values & arent bought out by special interests... to the best of our ability. Yeah, yeah... this is almost another forum entirely... so i will end here.

 

Bottom line... I want to fight the good fight & not compromise anymore than we have to. We have one shot & then it is status quo. My whole life has been under the wod. Now that we have some sense of reasonableness w regards to changing that, let us do it right. Sure, I can wait another year, or two, or three. Lots of people have sacrificed personal freedoms & property under the wod... it would be shame to throw it all away & let those that most benefitted from such public policy turn around & claim full ownership of weed just to have their personal wealth increase. Let's let the weed be for the people & by the people. Not to sound too corny, but you get it. Yes, that is worth fighting for imo... and holding out until we get it. Yes.

[cristinew]

where are the petitions ,

[Indigro]

where are the petitions ,

Lol... shot across my bow?

 

Yes, it is easiest to talk. If several of us worked together we could quite literally draft a much more comprehensive proposal vs what we have been presented thus far. I have even tried contributing at different times, in different places. There isn't a mj law on the books that we (everyday normal people) couldn't improve upon. It will just take time & a concerted effort. Truly, I can give several hundred hours to that cause. In fact, I would even cut my own throat to accomplish it (figuratively speaking, from an economic perspective).

 

Anyone willing to try a true grassroots initiative? I just dont see anyone else working it. Your point isnt lost cristinew... money & mouth. I am game.