Caregiver And Guns

[bobandtorey]

Hello,

 

I've been trying to find out if I can legally own a firearm and be a caregiver.I've only been able to find laws on concealed carry and patients. I'm at a fork in the road , I'm a cg for two family members who really need medical MJ and ive recently bought a house in the country and have a job that requires me to leave the state a few days a month. I want to know my family could defend themselves if someone were to break in ( not worried about rippers only four people know about my SMALL garden), and I also enjoy providing free meds to family members who genuinely need them.

Any help is appreciated

Thanks

 

 

HELENA, Mont. — Firearms dealers in states that allow medical marijuana can't sell guns or ammunition to registered users of the drug, a policy that marijuana and gun-rights groups say denies Second Amendment rights to individuals who are following state law.

Federal law already makes it illegal for someone to possess a gun if he or she is "an unlawful user of, or addicted to" marijuana or other controlled substances. 

A Sept. 21 letter from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, issued in response to numerous inquiries from gun dealers, clarifies that medical marijuana patients are included in that definition.

"There are no exceptions in federal law for marijuana purportedly used for medicinal purposes, even if such use is sanctioned by state law," said the letter by Arthur Herbert, the ATF's assistant director for enforcement programs and services.

Federal firearm licensees, or FFLs, can't sell a gun to someone who answers "yes" when a required form asks whether the buyer is a controlled substance user. 

'Reasonable cause to believe' 

Last week's letter also says that licensed dealers can't sell a gun or ammunition if they have "reasonable cause to believe" the buyer is using a controlled substance.

That includes if the buyer presents a medical marijuana card as identification, or if the buyer talks about drug use, having a medical marijuana card or a recent drug conviction, ATF spokesman Drew Wade said Wednesday.

 

Hello,

 

I've been trying to find out if I can legally own a firearm and be a caregiver.I've only been able to find laws on concealed carry and patients. I'm at a fork in the road , I'm a cg for two family members who really need medical MJ and ive recently bought a house in the country and have a job that requires me to leave the state a few days a month. I want to know my family could defend themselves if someone were to break in ( not worried about rippers only four people know about my SMALL garden), and I also enjoy providing free meds to family members who genuinely need them.

Any help is appreciated

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But there are no new obligations for gun dealers outlined in the letter, Wade said.

"We received lots of queries from the industry from various states of how to deal with state legislation and the federal law," he said. "It's our responsibility to provide advice and guidance."

The clash between state and federal drug laws has led to lawsuits and criminal cases in some of the 16 states that have legalized medical marijuana use.

Officials in two Oregon counties have said they'll appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court after state judges said sheriffs couldn't deny concealed handgun licenses for medical marijuana patients.

The Oregon Court of Appeals and the Oregon Supreme Court said the state law that authorizes concealed handgun permits is separate from the federal law that outlaws gun possession by drug users, and the state gun law doesn't address medical marijuana use.

Montana raids 

Federal authorities also raided dozens of medical marijuana operations across Montana this spring, chilling a once-booming pot industry and leading to sweeping changes in Montana law.

The Department of Justice followed up with a warning letter to political leaders in many states that federal prosecutors will pursue marijuana distributors but not individual patients who are following state law.

The letter the ATF sent to gun dealers last week was first reported by Lee Newspapers of Montana.

Pro-marijuana and gun groups said the policy clarification amounts to rescinding the gun rights for the thousands of people licensed to use medical marijuana laws. 

And it appears to contradict a 2009 Department of Justice memo that said the Obama administration would not pursue prosecution of individual medical marijuana users who obey state laws.

Besides that, the government is putting an additional burden on gun dealers to police their customers, said Montana Shooting Sports Association Gary Marbut.

"Their business is to be merchants, not to be cops. Unfortunately, the federal licensing scheme complicates that," Marbut said. "It sounds as if the (ATF) is expecting them to drift further into the cop role."

 

'Protecting America from criminals' 

Wade said both the 2009 memo and last week's letter were approved by the Justice Department and he does not believe there is a contradiction in the two messages.

He also that the dealers are in a good position to help prevent firearms from getting into the wrong hands.

"The FFLs aren't cops but they are at the front line of protecting America from criminals or people who are prohibited from possessing firearms," Wade said.

A salesman at one licensed firearms dealer, Montana Outdoor Sports in Helena, said he doesn't expect much to change as a result of the letter because it's largely up to the buyer to reveal whether he or she is a medical marijuana user.

"Who's going to say yes to that?" asked Damon Peters, a sales associate for the store and a licensed hunting guide.

"A lot of users of medical marijuana aren't really shooting sports enthusiasts, anyway. I think we may see a sale or two lost, but I don't see anything dramatic that's going to affect us," he said.

 

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44712648/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/do-medical-marijuana-users-have-right-bear-arms-no-says-atf/#.VZFrVGBYX0c

[cinamed]

Anytime you have to ask the government for your rights.... you have already lost them.

[Highlander]

If you ask the government for rights, you are demonstrating that you don't understand that the government is by the people and for the people. Sure, many/most elected officials are self-centered. But you can't expect "the government" to support you if you don't participate in the government. And it isn't easy. Sometimes you need to bust your behind and spend a lot of effort to make your position known. Or, maybe, you run for office yourself?

[GregS]

Government gives up nothing without demands. We don't necessarily need to get ugly with it until we find resistance. The gloves have to come off sometimes.

[Norby]

The application for the background check now asks if you are an ILLEGAL user of MJ or addicted to any drug(or illegal drug I can't remember).

[trichcycler]

The application for the background check now asks if you are an ILLEGAL user of MJ or addicted to any drug(or illegal drug I can't remember).

 

source?

[zachw]

source?

 

I was going to ask the same thing. Online searching turns up nada. This article from last month says it's prohibited because marijuana is still illegal under federal law.

 

Norby, please give a source or edit your post so as not to propagate false info about this important issue.

[trichcycler]

“The Michigan State Appeals Court has ruled that those granted use of marihuana for medicinal purposes remain classified as “drug users” or “drug addicts”, barring them from purchasing a gun and ammunition, regardless of the permission given to them to use marihuana for medicine reasons,” according to The Clark Law Offices.



"Furthermore, in order to qualify for a Concealed Carry License in Michigan, “One must TERMINATE their Medical Marijuana Card in order to legally purchase guns and ammo in the state of Michigan, or to legally obtain/maintain at concealed pistol license,” a passage reads from Detroit Arms.

“In order to do so,” the article continues, “the patient/caregiver must submit a written request to withdraw from the program including their signature. Include a copy of their valid photo ID and return the registry ID card. A confirmation letter will be sent when the Michigan Marijuana Program has processed the withdrawal.”


Read More: Is Gun Ownership Forbidden Under Michigan’s Medical Marijuana Law? | http://banana1015.com/is-gun-ownership-forbidden-under-michigans-medical-marijuana-law/?trackback=tsmclip


evidently its a federal offense to answer NO to the question "do you use or are you addicted to marijuana or any scheduled drug?"
in order to obtain a firearm license.

Oxycontin is a controlled substance too, and also applies?

[mibrains]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/19/medical-marijuana-gun-rights_n_5513152.html   Senate Measure Seeks To Protect Gun Rights Of Medical Marijuana Patients

Posted: 06/19/2014 8:43 pm

• WASHINGTON -- An amendment offered in the Senate Wednesday would block the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives from targeting legal gun owners just because they're also medical marijuana patient

Submitted by Sen. John Walsh (D-Mont.), the amendment to a Senate budgetary bill would ban the ATF from using its funds to criminalize the possession of firearms by medical marijuana patients in the 22 states and the District of Columbia that have legalized marijuana for medical use. The amendment would also protect patients in the states that have legalized CBD oil -- a non-psychoactive ingredient in marijuana that is frequently used to treat epilepsy -- for limited medical use or research.

A 2011 letter issued by the ATF told federal firearm licensees that they are not allowed to sell ammunition or firearms to marijuana users, even if that person is in full compliance with state laws. "[A]ny person who uses or is addicted to marijuana, regardless of whether his or her state has passed legislation authorizing marijuana use for medicinal purposes, is an unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance, and is prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition," the letter states.

A spokesperson from the Department of Justice said it does not comment on pending legislation.

"Marijuana policy alone already brings together an interesting progressive-libertarian mix of strange political bedfellows," said Marijuana Majority's Tom Angell, commenting on what kind of support the amendment might receive. "When you add in gun rights, we should see a very, very interesting bipartisan result."

Medical marijuana patients found in possession of firearms can be hit with serious federal charges. Take the case of Washington state's Larry Harvey and his family: They face the possibility of decades in prison for growing cannabis, which they use for their own medical needs. When the family home was raided, several guns were found, so the federal government also charged the five defendants with possession of a firearm in furtherance of drug trafficking.

The family insists the guns were used only for hunting in their rural area of the state.

"Larry and I lead a simple life," Rhonda Harvey, his wife, said. "We chop down all of our own firewood so we can lower our electricity bill, and I grow my own fruits and vegetables in the garden that I use for canning and to make pies and jam and stuff. We rely on hunting and fishing to keep ourselves fed throughout the year, which is why we own guns. Now, the federal government is using the guns against us -- all five of us -- and saying that each of us should serve at least five years in prison just for the gun charge alone. It doesn't matter that we used the shotgun to hunt turkeys and the hunting rifle for deer."

Although Washington state legalized medical marijuana more than a decade before the family was indicted in 2013, the federal government still classifies marijuana as a Schedule I substance, a designation the Drug Enforcement Administration reserves for the "most dangerous" drugs with "no currently accepted medical use."

More and more Americans disagree with that assessment. Eight-six percent approve of the legalization of medical marijuana, according to a recent CBS News survey.

"Marijuana is less harmful than alcohol and many prescription drugs, yet the federal government seems to have a persistent case of reefer madness," said Chris Lindsey, legislative analyst for the Marijuana Policy Project, in a statement. "A huge majority of Americans support seriously ill patients’ access to medical marijuana, yet the federal government still treats it like it were radioactive."

A vote on the Senate amendment could come as early as Friday.

Read the text of the amendment:

Sec. __. Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, none of the funds made available in this Act to the Department of Justice or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives may be used, with respect to registered medicinal marijuana patients in the States of Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin, to enforce the provisions of subsection (d)(3) or (g)(3) of section 922 of title 18, United States Code, against a registered medicinal marijuana patient based on either the status of the patient as a registered medicinal marijuana patient or the lawful use of medicinal marijuana under the laws of the State in which the patient resides.

[mibrains]

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878_1591_3503_4654-10929--,00.html

 

I. General Information: Type or clearly print in ink answers to all fields.

1. Full Legal Name (Include Suffix)

     

2. Date of Birth

     

3. Previous Names, Aliases, or Maiden Names (If Applicable)

     

4. Daytime Phone Number

(   )   -    

5. Social Security Number (Voluntary)

     

6. Driver’s License Number or State Identification Number

     

7a. Primary Residence Address

     

7b. Primary Residence City

     

7c. Primary Residence ZIP Code

     

8a. Mailing Address (If Different)

     

8b. Mailing City

     

8c. Mailing ZIP Code

     

9a. Race

     

9b. Gender

     

9c. Height

     

9d. Hair Color

     

9e. Eye Color

     

10. County of Residence

     

11. Place of Birth (State or Country)

     

12. Are you a U.S. citizen?

Yes No (If no, complete 13 a, b, and c)

13a. Are you a Legal Immigrant Alien?

Yes No

13b. Alien Registration Number

     

13c. Country of Citizenship

     

II. Type of License: Check the box next to the type of license that applies to this application.

New – Application for New License

Emergency – Personal Protection Order Obtained

Emergency – Sheriff Approved

Renewal – If renewing an existing license, complete the renewal information and certification below.

 

1. Renewal Information

a. Expiration Date of Current CPL

     

b. County of Issuance

     

c. Name on Previous License

     

d. CPL Number

     

2. Renewal Certification

I certify that I have completed at least three hours of review of the required training and have had at least one hour of firing range time in the six months immediately preceding this application.

Signature

Date

     

III. Survey: Answer "yes" or "no" to the following questions.

1. Have you ever been convicted of a felony in this state or elsewhere? Yes No

2. Do you have a felony charge pending in this state or elsewhere? Yes No

3. Have you been convicted of a misdemeanor violation, or have a misdemeanor charge pending, of any offense listed in
   Section A.9 of the CPL Guide in the eight years immediately preceding this application? Yes No

4. Have you been convicted of a misdemeanor violation, or have a misdemeanor charge pending, of any offense listed in

Section A.10 of the CPL Guide in the three years immediately preceding this application? Yes No

5. Do you have a personal protection order against you or have you been released by a judge or a district court magistrate
   subject to protective conditions? Yes No

6. Have you ever been found guilty but mentally ill of any crime or offered a plea of not guilty of, or been acquitted of, any
   crime by reason of insanity? Yes No

7. Are you now, or have you ever been, subject to an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting
   due to a mental illness? Yes No

8. Do you have a diagnosed mental illness that includes an assessment that you present a danger to yourself or another,
   regardless of whether you are receiving treatment for that illness? Yes No

9. Are you under a court order of legal incapacity in this state or elsewhere? Yes No

10. Have you ever been dishonorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces? Yes No

11. Have you completed the training required for a new CPL (documentation must be presented with the application),
    OR have you certified above that you have completed the required review and firing range time for a renewal of your license? Yes No

12. Are you a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer? Yes No

13. Are you exempt from prohibited premises pursuant to MCL 28.425o? If yes, acceptable proof must be presented to the
    county clerk. Yes No

14. Do you possess a valid Michigan driver’s license or personal identification card? Yes No

15. Are you on active duty or status with the United States Armed Forces on permanent duty assignment in Michigan with a
    valid driver’s license or personal identification card issued by a different state? Yes No

V. Agreement and Certification

By signing below, you acknowledge the following statements are true:

 

• I have read the information provided on carrying a concealed pistol and obtaining a Michigan CPL. I meet all the criteria for obtaining a CPL and I do not have a history of mental illness that would disqualify me from obtaining a CPL under the Firearms Act, 1927 PA 372, as amended.

 

• I give authority to the MSP to access any record needed to perform its required verification through the Law Enforcement Information Network (LEIN) and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

 

• I understand that my personal information, and biometric data being submitted by Livescan, will be used to search against identification records from both the MSP and FBI for the purpose of verifying my eligibility to obtain a CPL. I hereby authorize the release of my personal information for such purpose and release of any records found to the MSP.

 

• During the processing of this application, and for as long as my fingerprints and associated information/biometrics are retained at the State and/or FBI, they may be disclosed without my consent as permitted by MCL 28.248 and the Privacy Act of 1974, 5 USC § 552a, for all applicable routine uses published by the FBI, including the Federal Register and for the routine uses for the FBI's Next Generation Identification.

 

• Routine use includes, but is not limited to, disclosure to: governmental or authorized nongovernmental agencies responsible for employment, contracting, licensing, security clearances, and other suitable determinations; local, state, tribal, or federal law enforcement agencies; criminal justice agencies; and agencies responsible for national security or public safety. I understand this application is executed under oath and swear or affirm under penalty of law that the above answers are true and correct to the best of my knowledge. I understand that intentionally making a false statement on this application is a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than four years or a fine of not more than $2,500, or both.

 

• I have been provided with a copy of the compilation of the Firearms Laws of Michigan created by the Legislative Services Bureau and forms to appeal any notice of statutory disqualification, or suspension or revocation of a license under this act.

Applicant's Name and Signature (Do not sign until instructed by the county clerk or his or her representative.)
     

Date

     

Witness’ Name, Title, and Signature (County Clerk or Representative)
     

Date

     

Return the completed unsigned form and documentation of required training to the county clerk's office. A passport quality photograph must be submitted if a digital photograph is not on file with the Michigan Secretary of State.

[mibrains]

i dont see anything asking about illegal drug use on the application..

 

did i miss something?

 

i know the above document posted without text lines so it is difficult to surmise...but you can easily see there is no questions regarding drug use on the CPL application?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Michigan

[trichcycler]

yep, that's  for a "CPL", not a background check for firearm ownership.  Incidentally A CPL possession includes the agreement to be chemical tested a any time, or risk losing your CPL.

 

E

"Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance"

 

https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

 

ding ding for Norby!!

 

now, what constitutes a legal "addiction" to marijuana I ponder

 

but others could say --You don't have to be addicted, if you use marijuana you're an unlawful user of a controlled substance. feds trump state laws perhaps, marijuana is spelled correctly by the feds, and buying a firearm is a federal affair, where marijuana use is considered an offense.

answer yes and you will be denied, answer no and you will have lied--according to the feds, the guys that wont even let you mention your legal state permissions.

 

does one even to own a firearm as a prerequisite to a CPL ?

Edited January 8, 2016 by grassmatch

[trichcycler]

It’s one thing for a state to forget to enforce a federal law. It’s another to decide whether or not to surrender the names and addresses of registered marijuana users to the federal government, so the feds can enter the data into the FBI’s instant background check system. Or, indeed, an ATF database.

 

And if the ATF feels free to categorize registered marijuana users as “addicts” what’s to stop them from labeling the 30 million or so Americans who take antidepressants addicts? Or the 10 million or so who take sleeping pills? The times may not be ripe now, but there’s no getting around the fact that massive civilian disarmament is but an ATF letter away.

 

This is what happens with all “gun safety” legislation: it gets abused by the people in charge of enforcing it. The camel’s body follows the camel’s nose as surely as bureaucrats seek to extend their power to justify their existence. Quite how this particular issue is going to be resolved is anyone’s guess. But one thing’s for sure: these are not the criminals the ATF is looking for. Assuming they’re looking for criminals at all=thetruthaboutguns

[t-pain]

i think it comes from here, gun trainers:

http://www.detroitarms.com/uncategorized/tactical-tuesdays-detroit-arms/

[Norby]

source?

The application I filled out yesterday.  It doesn't ask if you are an addicted to marijuana.  It specifically asks if you are an unlawful user which means there are lawful users.  You can't have one without the other.  It then goes on to ask if you are addicted or use illegal drugs If they try to say there is not any legal mj users they are in for trouble if the judges aren't corrupt.  Look at the wording.  Isn't every word supposed to mean something?  Then why did they separate out MJ?  Should be in with illegal drugs and not mentioned if we aren't supposed to think different.  I understand the confusion and how it COULD go, but I'm right.

[Restorium2]

It's impossible to prove you are addicted to marijuana unless you make the case yourself. 

 

If you have your card you are legally using marijuana.

 

Even having a card doesn't prove you ever used marijuana.

 

There are so many carded patients with guns in Michigan that it would be crazy to even try to make this BS fly. 

 

I think that there are some marijuana haters at these training classes. Ex cops and the like. Really bad people spreading bad info. 

[t-pain]

and there are plenty of mmma patients and caregivers who have faced felony firearm 2 year mandatory minimum charges.

 

some have gotten their guns back. i wonder how many are doing 2 years for the guns though? maybe the duvals?

 

so take whatever advice you want, just know the reality.

[zachw]

I didn't see ANY mention of marijuana on the forms that I downloaded (as mentioned, the form shown above is for CPL and has NO mention of drugs at all).

 

I have never seen any news item, gun rights site, or lawyer site that said the requirements have changed vis a vis marijuana.

 

If the wording DID change, somewhere, someplace, there has to be a way to compare the forms pre- and post. THE ATF form mentioned above was last revised in 2012 so that CANNOT be what changed!!!

[beourbud]

Gee, No...Are you Addicted to Alcohol?  Pharmaceuticals? 

 

I guess if your popping oxy and slammin Jack you fit right in....10 ft tall and bullet proof.,  

 

Now That is the definition of armed and dangerous.

 

Welcome to republicanistan!

 

 

 

.

Edited January 8, 2016 by beourbud

[phaquetoo]

Gee, No...Are you Addicted to Alcohol?  Pharmaceuticals? 

 

 

 

.

or are you adicted to and ilegal drug!  I would say no, mm is not an ilegal drug for me, and that wouldnt be lying!

 

 

I had my .22 rifle taken from me when I got charged for simple possesion in roscomon county, I got arrested on fri nite, they took maybe 3 grms of smoke and roaches, 5 almost empty lil botttles of bho, that had very lil on the bottom, they called it black tar heroin lol!  they searched my camper on state land (i had a permit to camp) they took my loaded .22 rifle from my closet in the camper,,,

 

On mon morning I was at the po po station and retreived my gun and ammo, they than told me what I was charged with, all charges were dropped when prosecutor seen my card!

 

Peace

[trichcycler]

I don't like it any more than any other cannabis user. And I certainly don't claim to be "getting my legal advice" from any online source. I simply pasted some info that leads many to believe that the point is not addiction but use, noticing the "or".

 

On the federal level cannabis use is illegal, unless they, the feds, have provided you with the cannabis in their program. does anyone disagree with that ?

Illegal on that level means illegal to them. A cannabis user in MI without permission of the feds is in possession of illegal cannabis is my understanding. It isn't legal jjust because we think it should be, and I'm not posting because I think it should be illegal.  the feds say it is illegal. purchasing a firearm is a federal issue, the form is a fderal form. the intent of the lie would be to illegally acquire a firearm if they chose. will they?  have they?   not sure. can they?  you bet

[trichcycler]

I didn't see ANY mention of marijuana on the forms that I downloaded (as mentioned, the form shown above is for CPL and has NO mention of drugs at all).

did you download this one?

https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

[trichcycler]

The application I filled out yesterday.  It doesn't ask if you are an addicted to marijuana.  It specifically asks if you are an unlawful user which means there are lawful users.  You can't have one without the other.  It then goes on to ask if you are addicted or use illegal drugs If they try to say there is not any legal mj users they are in for trouble if the judges aren't corrupt.  Look at the wording.  Isn't every word supposed to mean something?  Then why did they separate out MJ?  Should be in with illegal drugs and not mentioned if we aren't supposed to think different.  I understand the confusion and how it COULD go, but I'm right.

is your cannabis unlawful on the state level?

 

how about on a federal level?

did the feds give you permission to receive cannabis from them for personal use?

 

are the purchase forms federal or state?

 

you believe your state use is legal, but feds could disagree? IN a federal court you wont mention your card status, jury will here you grow, use, and sell. could they also charge you for lying on a federal form to obtain a firearm while in the commission of a federal crime?

Edited January 8, 2016 by grassmatch

[Restorium2]

is your cannabis unlawful on the state level?

 

how about on a federal level?

 

are the purchase forms federal or state?

 

you believe your state use is legal, but feds could disagree? IN a federal court you wont mention your card status, jury will here you grow, use, and sell. could they also charge you for lying on a federal form to obtain a firearm while in the commission of a federal crime?

If you are worried buy your gun at a gun show. No forms. 

[Sledge]

In my experience, due to the speed that events take place once someone is in your home, unless the firearm is loaded and within arms reach you're not going to have time to use it anyway.

 

The cartridge makes a big difference when shooting in a residential situation. A 7.62x39 round will go right thru the intended target and may very well hit someone behind them. (I lost an old friend this very way)

 

Stick with a shotgun or a pistol loaded with wadcutters for home protection. I was once told by a LEO in Detroit to keep a .410 loaded with birdshot. Not lethal but very unpleasant when it hits you.

 

My personal preference is a 12 gauge loaded with one #6 bird shell then loaded up the rest of the way with #1 buckshot. If the birdshot doesn't change their minds they don't get a second chance.

 

Wadcutters are particularly nasty at close range, a low velocity round that inflicts a civil war type injury, similar to a musket ball.

 

If you so much as hold something in your hand that might be mistaken for a firearm during a raid you will likely be shot and killed.

 

and if those don't work.....................................................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuZmY2nrnA