Advice Please! Card Holder

[Restorium2]

So they actually were caught in possession of MJ.

 

Pretty hard to deny your use to get a CPL  if you have marijuana and say you use it as a patient. 

 

Seems a lot different to me than losing your rights to say you don't use just because you just got a card. 

[Restorium2]

Most people I know deny they use illegal drugs on the form because they consider it legal with a card.

 

With it still illegal federally it's a grey area depending on your perspective. 

 

If it's ever legal federally then that would give us a better position of strength to work from. 

 

Go Bernie.

[t-pain]

did we ever figure out the clemis database in oakland county?

[Restorium2]

Specifically on the gun rights, the gun lobby is very powerful. You would think they would apply some pressure to make gun rights less exclusive when it comes to State legal drugs being considered illegal just because they are still illegal federally. 

[t-pain]

no, black people love drugs so cant give black people guns, so keep durgs illegal, no blacks get guns.

 

thats the logic. i think.

 

makes about as much sense as the marijuana makes white women have sex with jazz musicians.

[suneday11]

no, black people love drugs so cant give black people guns, so keep durgs illegal, no blacks get guns.thats the logic. i think.makes about as much sense as the marijuana makes white women have sex with jazz musicians.

shut down that blasted blind pig!!!!!!

[trichcycler]

I thought marijuana made black musicians have sex with white women, not the other way around.......ow all these new hybrid strains.....hard to keep up

[medmanmike]

Welcome to the site!

 

when he asked you to come back to his car because it would be easier, I would have said I prefer to sit in my own car.  If he said it again I would have asked him if I was under arrest for something!  Fricking cops just sit on their a sses all day any how, why should you make his job easier, he pulled you over!

 

When asked If you were an mm card holder, I would have said why?  I know personaly I would not have said yes unless they already found my stash!  some thing tells me you have been pulled over before and had an mj related incident, they do not know you are a card holder unless you telll them (at least that is how the law is supposed to work), was your dry in a jar and no way could have been smelled when he walked upto your truck?

 

I most def would have continued on my way to the u.p for fishing, unless your bond broke ya!

 

Its kinda funny how you use the word "we" when you ask if you should fight it in court!  do you have a mouse in your pocket? lol jk!

 

I would fight it tooth and nail, and I would rent a bus and bring every one you know with you to every hearing, because you will not get much help from members in here to show up for court, I will be there for you, But will you be there for me if I ever need support?  I know of several that will, because I was there for them!

 

Best of luck to You!

 

Peace

How about just refusing to answer any questions?  I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that you do not have to answer any questions.  You are not under arrest, you do not have a lawyer present, you are not "under oath" etc.  If you refuse to give them any information, what can they do?  How can they arrest you if they don't know (get any info) what's going on (regarding mmj)?

[zachw]

How about just refusing to answer any questions?  I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that you do not have to answer any questions.  You are not under arrest, you do not have a lawyer present, you are not "under oath" etc.  If you refuse to give them any information, what can they do?  How can they arrest you if they don't know (get any info) what's going on (regarding mmj)? bu

 

What can they do? They can make things much more uncomfortable for you regardless of your rights!

 

Fantasy scenario:

 

"Do you mind if we look in the trunk?"

 

"Yes, I do mind officer".

 

"No problem, have a nice day". 

[elkhunter]

Welcome to the site!

 

when he asked you to come back to his car because it would be easier, I would have said I prefer to sit in my own car.  If he said it again I would have asked him if I was under arrest for something!  Fricking cops just sit on their a sses all day any how, why should you make his job easier, he pulled you over!

 

When asked If you were an mm card holder, I would have said why?  I know personaly I would not have said yes unless they already found my stash!  some thing tells me you have been pulled over before and had an mj related incident, they do not know you are a card holder unless you telll them (at least that is how the law is supposed to work), was your dry in a jar and no way could have been smelled when he walked upto your truck?

 

I most def would have continued on my way to the u.p for fishing, unless your bond broke ya!

 

Its kinda funny how you use the word "we" when you ask if you should fight it in court!  do you have a mouse in your pocket? lol jk!

 

I would fight it tooth and nail, and I would rent a bus and bring every one you know with you to every hearing, because you will not get much help from members in here to show up for court, I will be there for you, But will you be there for me if I ever need support?  I know of several that will, because I was there for them!

 

Best of luck to You!

 

Peace

 

 

   Thx for reaching out!

 

   to answer some of your questions...

 

   It had been at least 10yrs since I had been pulled over prior. So although I know not to say anything. Its sometimes easier said then done. I am an honest person to a fault at times. I played it the best I could in the moment.

 

They actually didn't charge me any bond. Just the impound fee on truck. To me it seemed they just wanted my information in the database. I couldn't make the remaining 5hr drive and risk more trouble. I also didn't have enough medicine for even when I arrived to alleviate my pain from drive.

 

I also don't recall seeing "We" as far as fighting in court. I was just putting a quote at the end of post. I do however feel I need to stand up instead of just paying a fine. For all the community, those who have stood already, Those who will choose to stand, Those who will still be standing.

 

As for being there for support. I am not one to help for help back. I help to pay it forward. So if I can help you, just let me know what you need. Even if you are not in a position to help me.

 

God Bless!

[elkhunter]

So I've spoke with a few lawyers after I was able to get the arraignment adjourned to the 19th. Being they only gave me 4 days notice. However the cost is all over the place for representation. I don't want to say exact #s and make anyone upset. But I do need input please. give or take a few hundred

 

 Lawyer from my area $1500. covers everything through pre trial.

 

 Lawyer from Gaylord. $1200. "

 

Komorn $5000 couldn't find notes on details

 

Or I can drive the 3hrs thur to the arraignment. see exactly what I'm dealing with. Present my card, guessing the officer didn't include it in the report. Then make my next move from there on who I choose.

 

Any thoughts or advice?

[Highlander]

Can you be more specific about what each attorney is basing the estimate on?

 

The $1200 to $1500 fee seems to me to be the likely fee for your attorney either meeting with the PAs office once or attending one court appearance and negotiating a plea deal. Atty. Komorn may be looking at this from the standpoint of running the gauntlet and getting the case dismissed, hence the higher fee.

 

If you take a plea deal and end up paying court costs, p tests, suspended driver's license, etc., your plea deal with a $1500 fee may cost more in the long run than paying an atty who concentrates in mmj law $5k to get the case dismissed or a NG verdict.

 

So please make sure you know exactly what each atty is offering for the fee. And maybe also ask them about their experience with mmj cases.

 

I'm concerned that your $1500 atty just wants to make a quick plea deal and take your money.

[t-pain]

go up there for the arraignment and tell him you'll plead to impeding traffic, otherwise you'll take it to court and sue for wrongful arrest.

[elkhunter]

Great Advice indeed!

 

  It's hard to get these offices on the phone and also keep them on the phone. Not a single one has kept it's word on calling back at given time frame they said. Let alone even the day, or sending emails. I'm a fair man and understand things come up, people are busy, etc. With the short time frame given. It has made it a trying task. I ended up speaking with 3 different people from Komorn's office. Who I was really excited to speak with because of all the great things I have read. Which meant I had to go through 20-40min explaining the same thing to each. They were very friendly! However it became frustrating. I greatly respect what he does for the entire medical community.

 

It did feel like all 3 firms were feeling me out for what they could get.

 

I got the feeling the $1500 was confident he could get it dismissed by the end of pre trial. However he did not say that.

 

Most of the cases seen in front of honor Morse that I was able to find via a thread on here. Were for illegal transport and bargained down to attempted and $300-$350 fine/costs. My situation is a little different being 333.7403 so I don't know if they even give me an idea of what I would face if I make the 6hr round trip. They also don't say if they were represented by an attorney.

 

It's total crap that I or any patient should have to deal with this! I find positive in every situation. This has left me feeling very negative about our rights and what's being done to them.

[t-pain]

since you had your card at arrest and they are charging you with poss., the card protects against prosecution too, so you could call the prosecutor and talk to him, maybe he will drop it over the phone.

 

just be careful what you say, anything can and will be used against you and all of that.

 

this advice is what i might do. i'm not telling you to do this and it could possibly screw up your case.

 

if that didnt work, i'd probably go in front of a judge to get an injunction from the judge to stop the prosecution of this nonsense. then i'd file a complaint with the bar, ag office and anyone else that i could find. http://www.agcmi.com/pages/RequestInvestigation.html

 

after filing a complaint with the bar, i'd start a lawsuit against the trooper involved for wrongful arrest, the prosecutor for wrongful prosecution, and anyone involved (court clerk, police, prosecutor) for violating the mmma confidentiality and conspiracy to break the law. then i'd get a federal prosecutor to help in the prosecution of these crimes.

 

 

ultimately its up to you. do you want to plead guilty to some misd and be done with it? letting the jerks stomp on yet another patient. or do you want to fight in court for possibly 5 years? tough choice.

[Alphabob]

I think $2000 - $3000 is expected for full pre-trial services in MMMA cases. The range is more like $1000-$5000 depending on the quality of representation you want. I had to drop a cheaper attorney because they wanted me to plead guilty and take a 7411 deal. If you want someone who is going to file motions and do work, I would say $3000 minimum. Also take into consideration drug testing, other expenses such as probation and how the resulting record might affect you. I know Oakland county makes you drug test during pretrial, which can be $100’s; I don’t know about other counties.

If you think approaching the prosecutor or arresting officer is a good idea, I would definitely consult an attorney first and perhaps have them do it for you. The prosecutor could have just been lazy when furthering the process against you… then again they could have a grudge against medical marijuana or a particular interpretation of the law. Definitely do not retaliate when your case is ongoing. The usual route is filling motions during pretrial and hoping the case is dismissed.

[elkhunter]

 

I think $2000 - $3000 is expected for full pre-trial services in MMMA cases. The range is more like $1000-$5000 depending on the quality of representation you want. I had to drop a cheaper attorney because they wanted me to plead guilty and take a 7411 deal. If you want someone who is going to file motions and do work, I would say $3000 minimum. Also take into consideration drug testing, other expenses such as probation and how the resulting record might affect you. I know Oakland county makes you drug test during pretrial, which can be $100’s; I don’t know about other counties.

 

If you think approaching the prosecutor or arresting officer is a good idea, I would definitely consult an attorney first and perhaps have them do it for you. The prosecutor could have just been lazy when furthering the process against you… then again they could have a grudge against medical marijuana or a particular interpretation of the law. Definitely do not retaliate when your case is ongoing. The usual route is filling motions during pretrial and hoping the case is dismissed.

 

 

Thank you!

[elkhunter]

So pre-trial did not go as hoped. Request for dismissal was denied. Stating wax is not protected.

 

My lawyer said the prosecution  mentioned a chance to maybe plea to an improper transport or use. Total crap!

 

I feel they are playing hard ball and making threats of course. My biggest fear is the Lic suspension. Because I do snow removal and that would effect a big part of my income. Putting my household at risk. Most importantly my 5-7yr old boys. I already feel I failed them by putting us at risk by not fully understanding how these laws work at the time.

 

I really don't want to accept rolling over! Any input would be appreciated

 

God bless

[t-pain]

interoculatory appeal the denial of the motion to dismiss. if you win, case over.

 

you may lose in CoA , but will win in mich supreme court.

 

yeah, you can either fight or roll over. thats the choice. its up to you.

ask prosecutor if you plead to transport if that means lic suspended or not. most cases its not. some it is though. up to court.

[elkhunter]

Is there a way to get past prosecutor and to judge before trial? Judge seems far more fair then the prosecutor

[t-pain]

who denied the motion to dismiss at pre-trial? only a judge can deny a motion.

 

to get around a prosecutor, you can go to the court and ask for an injunction in the case.

but thats going to be difficult and rare.

 

if the judge denied your motion to dismiss, you have to file an interloculatory appeal. like it says in the michigan supreme court ruling, i will add a link in a sec.

 

last sentence in this pdf. http://courts.mi.gov/Courts/MichiganSupremeCourt/Clerks/Recent%20Opinions/11-12-Term-Opinions/142850-Opinion.pdf

[elkhunter]

who denied the motion to dismiss at pre-trial? only a judge can deny a motion.

 

to get around a prosecutor, you can go to the court and ask for an injunction in the case.

but thats going to be difficult and rare.

 

if the judge denied your motion to dismiss, you have to file an interloculatory appeal. like it says in the michigan supreme court ruling, i will add a link in a sec.

 

last sentence in this pdf. http://courts.mi.gov/Courts/MichiganSupremeCourt/Clerks/Recent%20Opinions/11-12-Term-Opinions/142850-Opinion.pdf

 

Thanks!

 

 The lawyer made it sound like he spoke with prosecutor and that's who said wax is not covered and it would not be dismissed. I will follow up and verify with lawyer

[t-pain]

btw, read and re-read any motions to dismiss

 

the msc just laid down a bunch of rules and regulations that need to be in the motion to dismiss and the evidence required to make a successful sec4 / sec8 evidentiary hearing. so make sure your evidence / briefs / motions all have that info in them .

[Alphabob]

So pre-trial did not go as hoped. Request for dismissal was denied. Stating wax is not protected.

 

My lawyer said the prosecution  mentioned a chance to maybe plea to an improper transport or use. Total crap!

 

I feel they are playing hard ball and making threats of course. My biggest fear is the Lic suspension. Because I do snow removal and that would effect a big part of my income. Putting my household at risk. Most importantly my 5-7yr old boys. I already feel I failed them by putting us at risk by not fully understanding how these laws work at the time.

 

I really don't want to accept rolling over! Any input would be appreciated

 

God bless

 

I’m not a lawyer so this is not legal advice! Nonetheless,

 

If your lawyer actually filed a motion for dismissal, you should have received a copy of the motion and a date in court if it is accepted as a valid motion by the judge. This date is when you would go into the courtroom with your lawyer, the prosecuting attorney and the judge. Usually the judge asks the prosecutor if they have any objections to the motion, and if so they provide their argument. The judge then weighs their arguments against yours (in the motion) and decides to either deny or allow it. What I can say is that the law is on your side, even if the judge and prosecutor are not. With that being said there are a few ways things could go.

 

(1) If you have not taken a 7411 with a prior drug charge, then this would be the cheapest way out (333.7411 of public health code). It would not be an admission of guilt and the court proceedings would be deferred. However, it is up to the judge’s discretion of what requirements must be fulfilled to successfully complete the 7411 probation. This can include drug testing (may not being able to use medical marijuana), probation officer, ect. If you violate probation for any reason you are found guilty of the prior possession.

 

(2) Since wax is a direct preparation of the leaves or flowers, it is covered by the MMMA. The confusion here is arising because COA said you could not make cannabutter or resin and then use that to make edibles; i.e. the edibles would be a preparation of resin/extract rather than dried flowers directly (although cannabutter or resin is a direct preparation of the flower). The problem is that the response or retaliation of the prosecutor is often difficult to predict. One case with BHO refused to take a deal because the law protects direct extracts; this resulted in the prosecutor instead charging for synthetic THC (felony), sparking the whole MSP lab fraud debate.

 

(3) You can try the very unreliable section 8 defense.

 

If you have the patients, time and cash to fight this, then I wouldn’t accept anything more than a civil infraction (or 7411 if you can go without meds). Your motion if you decide to do so, should be hitting the point that wax is a direct preparation of dried leaves and flower and thus counts as "usable marijuana".

 

3(k) “‘Usable marihuana’ means the dried leaves and flowers of the marihuana plant, and any mixture or preparation thereof, but does not include the seeds, stalks, and roots of the plant.”

 

3(f) "'Medical use' means the acquisition, possession, cultivation, manufacture, use, internal possession, delivery, transfer, or transportation of marihuana or paraphernalia relating to the administration of marihuana to treat or alleviate a registered qualifying patient's debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition."

 

And that furthermore from 4(d), it should be presumed you are engaged in the medical use of marijuana in accordance with the act unless the prosecutor provides evidence otherwise. In other words, has the prosecutor provided evidence that the substance is not a mixture or preparation of dried leaves and flowers? If not, you need to say so in the motion as it relates to section 4(a), that the burden of evidence was never fulfilled and thus the charges should be dropped. Furthermore, I would include that if you are not entitled to section 4 immunity, then you are entitled to a section 8 evidentiary hearing.

 

4(a) "A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, provided that the qualifying patient possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana,”

 

4(d) "There shall be a presumption that a qualifying patient or primary caregiver is engaged in the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act if the qualifying patient or primary caregiver: (1) is in possession of a registry identification card; and (2) is in possession of an amount of marihuana that does not exceed the amount allowed under this act. The presumption may be rebutted by evidence that conduct related to marihuana was not for the purpose of alleviating the qualifying patient's debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition, in accordance with this act."

Edited December 1, 2015 by Alphabob

[elkhunter]

btw, read and re-read any motions to dismiss

 

the msc just laid down a bunch of rules and regulations that need to be in the motion to dismiss and the evidence required to make a successful sec4 / sec8 evidentiary hearing. so make sure your evidence / briefs / motions all have that info in them .

 

Do you have a link to this information or documentation? I also remember seeing some papers one should fill out and keep copies on them on another thread. I can't seem to find those either