Why Is It So Hard To Test Whether Drivers Are Stoned?

[zachw]

 

Law enforcement officials would love to have a clear way to tell when a driver is too drugged to drive. But the decades of experience the country has in setting limits for alcohol have turned out to be rather useless so far because the mind-altering compound in cannabis, THC, dissolves in fat, whereas alcohol dissolves in water.

 

And that changes everything. "It's really difficult to document drugged driving in a relevant way," says Margaret Haney, a neurobiologist at Columbia University, "[because of] the simple fact that THC is fat soluble. That makes it absorbed in a very different way and much more difficult to relate behavior to, say, [blood] levels of THC or develop a breathalyzer."

 

Read the whole article here.

[GregS]

Umm, because they are not impaired?

[trichcycler]

I've seen cannabis impaired folks, and have been cannabis impaired myself.  I've seen people get wasted from two hits, to the point they had to sit quietly to wait for the impairment to subside.

 Some people go to sleep  ,suffer gastrointestinal distrubances, get dizzy, etc when cannabis impaired.  When I first visited the local dispensary, the one with the gun toting dirty bud tenders, the room was full of cannabis users currently impaired . Now, they may have been slack jawed dimwits to begin with as they were when I walked in, but after I shared a couple joints they were unquestionably impaired imo.

[t-pain]

geeze zap, trying to get grassmatch to post on topic or something?

[imiubu]

Send this kind of information to your legislators.

 

5024 is an evil piece of legislation that I think, given what I witnessed on Tues.

This will be passed and become an act (attack) that allows leo to swab (maybe take your dna while they are at it?)

your mouth at road side if they suspect you are impaired driving... then if you show active (haha) THC, you will get

a ride to the station for a "chemical test" (blood draw [dna again?).

 

Please contact your legislators to oppose this.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/billintroduced/House/htm/2015-HIB-5024.htm

 

HOUSE BILL No. 5024

October 27, 2015, Introduced by Rep. Lucido and referred to the Committee on Judiciary.

 

     A bill to create the impaired driving safety commission; to

 

prescribe its powers and duties; to create the impaired driving

 

safety commission fund; to provide for use of the fund; and to

 

repeal acts and parts of acts.

 

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:

 

     Sec. 1. This act shall be known and may be cited as the

 

"impaired driving safety commission act".

 

     Sec. 2. As used in this act:

 

     (a) "Commission" means the impaired driving safety commission

 

created in section 3.

 

     (b) "Marihuana" means that term as defined in section 7106 of

 

the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7106, and includes all

 

of the following:

 

     (i) All parts of a Cannabis sativa L. plant, growing or not.

 

     (ii) The seeds or seedlings of a Cannabis sativa L. plant.

 

     (iii) The resin extracted from any part of a Cannabis sativa

 

L. plant.

 

     (iv) Every compound, manufacture, salt, derivative, mixture,

 

or preparation of a Cannabis sativa L. plant or its seeds or resin.

 

 

 

     © "THC" means delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol acid.

 

     Sec. 3. (1) The impaired driving safety commission is created

 

within the department of state police.

 

     (2) The commission shall research and recommend a

 

scientifically supported threshold of THC bodily content to provide

 

evidence for per se impaired driving in this state. The commission

 

shall exist until it submits the final report to the governor,

 

senate majority leader, and speaker of the house of representatives

 

required under section 4.

 

     (3) Subject to subsection (4), the commission shall consist of

 

the following members appointed by the governor:

 

     (a) The director of the department of state police or his or

 

her designated representative from within the department of state

 

police.

 

     (b) One physician licensed under article 15 of the public

 

health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.16101 to 333.18838.

 

     © One forensic toxicologist.

 

     (d) One qualified and registered patient under the Michigan

 

medical marihuana act, 2008 IL 1, MCL 333.26421 to 333.26430.

 

     (e) One professor from 3 different public research

 

universities in this state.

 

     (4) Only individuals meeting the qualifications under

 

subsection (3) who have significant experience or involvement in

 

studying marihuana, substance abuse, or impaired driving shall be

 

appointed to serve on the commission. An individual not possessing

 

good moral character, or who has been charged with a felony or

 

misdemeanor criminal charge involving a controlled substance,

 

theft, dishonesty, or fraud under the laws of this state, another

 

state, the United States, or a local ordinance substantially

 

corresponding to the laws of this state, is not eligible to serve

 

on the commission.

 

     (5) The governor shall appoint the members to the commission

 

within 90 days of the effective date of this act.

 

     (6) Members of the commission shall serve on the commission

 

unless or until a successor member is appointed by the governor.

 

     (7) If a vacancy occurs on the commission, the governor shall

 

make an appointment for the unexpired term in the same manner as

 

the original appointment.

 

     (8) The first meeting of the commission shall be called within

 

30 days after the members of the commission have been appointed.

 

The governor shall appoint 1 commission member to serve as the

 

commission chairperson. The chairperson shall serve as the

 

chairperson of the commission for the entirety of the commission's

 

term unless he or she is removed or resigns. If a chairperson is

 

removed or resigns, the governor shall appoint another member to

 

serve as chairperson.

 

     (9) Members of the commission shall serve without compensation

 

but shall be reimbursed for their actual and necessary expenses

 

incurred in the performance of their official duties as members of

 

the commission.

 

     (10) The governor may remove a member of the commission for

 

incompetence, dereliction of duty, malfeasance, misfeasance, or

 

nonfeasance in office, or for any other good cause.

 

     (11) A majority of the members of the commission constitute a

 

quorum for the transaction of business at a meeting of the

 

commission. A majority of the members present and serving are

 

required for official action of the commission.

 

     (12) The commission shall establish its own procedures and

 

requirements with respect to quorum, place and conduct of its

 

meetings, and other matters. The procedures established by the

 

commission shall at a minimum prescribe the requirements for

 

attendance at commission meetings by members, how meetings shall be

 

conducted, and any policies necessary to carry out the powers and

 

duties of the commission under this act. The procedures established

 

by the commission under this act shall be printed in an appropriate

 

manual and made available to the governor, the senate majority

 

leader, and the speaker of the house of representatives.

 

     (13) The business that the commission may perform shall be

 

conducted at a public meeting held in compliance with the open

 

meetings act, 1976 PA 267, MCL 15.261 to 15.275.

 

     (14) A writing prepared, owned, used, in the possession of, or

 

retained by the commission in the performance of an official

 

function is subject to the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442,

 

MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

 

     Sec. 4. The commission shall do all of the following:

 

     (a) Identify sources for grants to assist in defraying the

 

cost of researching the effects of marihuana on driving.

 

     (b) Fund a research program at a public research university to

 

determine the appropriate threshold of THC bodily content to

 

provide evidence for per se impaired driving.

 

     © Collect and analyze information regarding marihuana-

 

induced impaired driving and THC bodily content impairment

 

thresholds.

 

     (d) Review and analyze research and state laws, in this state

 

and other states, relating to THC bodily content thresholds that

 

provide evidence for per se impaired driving.

 

     (e) File a final report with the governor, the senate majority

 

leader, and the speaker of the house of representatives regarding

 

its activities under this act. The commission shall file the report

 

not later than July 1, 2017. The report shall include, but not be

 

limited to, the results of the commission's research program,

 

recommendations for an appropriate threshold of THC bodily content

 

to provide evidence for per se impaired driving, and

 

recommendations for further legislative action.

 

     Sec. 5. (1) The impaired driving commission safety fund is

 

created within the department of treasury. The fund shall be

 

administered by the department of state police.

 

     (2) Creation of the impaired driving safety commission fund is

 

contingent upon appropriation of money to the fund.

 

     (3) The commission may apply for and obtain grants from any

 

source to carry out the purpose of this act. All funds received by

 

the commission are state funds and shall be appropriated as

 

provided by law.

 

     (4) Money in the impaired driving safety commission fund shall

 

be expended only upon appropriation and only in a manner to carry

 

out the purpose of this act. Money remaining in the fund at the

 

close of the fiscal year shall lapse to the general fund.

 

     Sec. 6. This act is repealed on the date the commission's

 

final report to the governor, the senate majority leader, and the

 

speaker of the house of representatives required under section 4 is

 

filed or on July 1, 2017, whichever occurs first.

 

     Enacting section 1. This act takes effect January 1, 2016.

 

------------------

 

 

Legislative Analysis;

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/billanalysis/House/htm/2015-HLA-5024-EBDEE2D7.htm

IMPAIRED DRIVING SAFETY COMMISSION ACT

House Bill 5024 as introduced

Sponsor:  Rep. Peter J. Lucido

Committee:  Judiciary

Complete to 2-8-16

SUMMARY:

House Bill 5024 creates a new act to establish a commission charged with researching and recommending a threshold of THC bodily content that would constitute evidence for per se impaired driving.  The new act would take effect January 1, 2016.

The new act would be known as the Impaired Driving Safety Commission Act, which would, among other things, do the following:

Create the Impaired Driving Safety Commission

·         Appointed by the Governor, membership would comprise the director of the Department of State Police (or a designee), one M.D. or D.O., one forensic toxicologist, one medical marihuana patient, and one professor from three different Michigan public research universities (clarification as to whether this is one professor selected from any of the three state research universities or three professors, one selected from each of the three research universities, is expected).

·         Appointees must have significant experience or involvement in studying marihuana, substance abuse, or impaired driving, as well as have good moral character.  An appointee could not have been charged with a felony or misdemeanor involving a controlled substance, theft, dishonesty, or fraud.

·         Members must be appointed within 90 days of the bill's effective date.

·         Members would serve without compensation but would be reimbursed for actual and necessary expenses incurred in the performance of their official duties.

·         Commission business must be conducted in accordance with the Open Meetings Act, and writings prepared, owned, used, in the possession of, or retained by the commission in the performance of an official function would be subject to the Freedom of Information Act.

·         The commission would be abolished upon submission of a final report that would include an appropriate threshold of THC for a per se impaired driving violation.

Commission Duties

The Commission must do all of the following:

·         Identify sources for grants to assist in defraying the cost of researching the effects of marihuana on driving.

·         Fund a research program at a public research university to determine the appropriate threshold for a per se THC bodily content for impaired driving.  (See Background Information.)

·         Collect and analyze information regarding marihuana-induced impaired driving and the THC bodily content impairment thresholds.

·         Review and analyze research and state laws relating to the THC bodily content thresholds that provide evidence for per se impaired driving.

·         File a final report with the Governor and Legislature no later than July 1, 2017.  The report must include, but not be limited to, the results of the Commission's research program, recommendations for an appropriate threshold of the THC bodily content to provide evidence for per se impaired driving, and recommendations for further legislative action.

Impaired Driving Commission Safety Fund

The Fund would be created within the Department of Treasury but administered by the Department of State Police, contingent upon appropriation of money to the Fund.  All money received by the Commission (including grants) would be state funds and appropriated by law.  Money in the Fund could be expended only upon appropriation and only in a manner to carry out the act's purpose.  Money remaining in the Fund at the close of the fiscal year must lapse to the General Fund.

Repealer

The act would be repealed on the date the Commission's final report to the Governor, Senate Majority Leader, and Speaker of the House of Representatives is filed or on July 1, 2017, whichever occurs first.

Effective date

BACKGROUND INFORMATION:

Operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated or impaired by the consumption of alcohol, illegal drugs, and some prescription medications, or any combination of these substances is against the law and a violator faces criminal penalties as well as license sanctions and fines.  Alcohol has a per se threshold for drunk driving, meaning that a person is guilty of drunk driving if the person's bodily alcohol content (BAC) level is 0.08 or higher.  A person is guilty of drugged driving if the person has any amount of a Schedule 1 controlled substance (illegal narcotics, hallucinogens, etc.), or cocaine. 

Marihuana currently is listed (both on the federal and state drug schedules) as a Schedule 1 drug.  Unlike other Schedule 1 drugs, however, the component of marihuana responsible for most of the psychological effects, THC, may be detected in the saliva or blood, and in particular hair or urine, long after the ability to affect a person's driving ability has dissipated.  According to a report issued by the Governors Highway Safety Association, five states had enacted laws establishing a per se threshold for impaired driving for THC as of August, 2015.  [Hedlund, James (n.d.).  Drug-impaired Driving:  A Guide for What States Can Do.  Retrieved from

http://ghsa.org/html/files/pubs/GHSA_DruggedDrivingt2015_R5_LoResInteractive.pdf ]     

FISCAL IMPACT:

This bill would have an indeterminate fiscal impact on the Department of State Police (MSP). This bill creates the Impaired Driving Safety Commission Fund (Fund), but does not appropriate any initial funding. The Impaired Driving Safety Commission (Commission), which would be created under the MSP, would be tasked with seeking out funding to conduct the research mandated in this bill, presumably from private and/or federal grants.

It is unknown how much funding a research project assessing the influence of THC on the ability to operate a vehicle safely would require. It is also unclear as to whether or not the MSP would be required to fund the research project if the Commission is unable to secure outside sources of funding. While the creation of the Fund is dependent upon appropriations to the Fund, the responsibilities of the Commission would not be. Presumably then if no outside funds were obtained by the Commission, the full cost of the project would have to be covered by existing MSP resources.

The members of the Commission would not be compensated for their services. However, the MSP would be responsible for any incidentals or administrative costs.

                                                                                        Legislative Analyst:   Susan Stutzky

                                                                                                Fiscal Analyst:   Kent P. Dell

 

 

 

Be afraid folks, be very afraid.

[zachw]

Big takeaways. While BAC levels are useful for determining impairment, no such correlation exists between THC levels and impairment. You can't assume THC impairment by taking a blood sample because of the way THC is stored, nor can one assume impairment EVEN IF one could accurately determine that cannabis was consumed recently.

[imiubu]

Right Zach.

 

It was admitted in the House Judiciary hearing that there is no science available on this subject and...

 

leo is quite determined to start this 'pilot program' with the people of MI as the guinea pigs in order to

go on a witch hunt. 

 

They know there is no science yet this will be implemented against the people of MI regardless.

 

 

 

Get up, stand up... stand up for your rights.

[trichcycler]

geeze zap, trying to get grassmatch to post on topic or something?

geez tpain, did you notice the post directly above the mine? you know the one, where greg says "because they are not impaired", the same one I was responding to obviously?

 

your post is waay off topic btw, but I don't care, I still love ya

[bobandtorey]

geez tpain, did you notice the post directly above the mine? you know the one, where greg says "because they are not impaired", the same one I was responding to obviously?

 

your post is waay off topic btw, but I don't care, I still love ya

 

 

We all do T-pain

[trichcycler]

I may not have followed the story closely enough, but it doesn't seem like any of these people were driving.

if you mean the people I mention, you are correct. In that state walking could be difficult. I was pointing out to greg that some users can and do experience impairment even at low levels of use, all depending maybe on what the article is suggesting comparing eating, smoking cannabis, fat content, frequent users compared to others etc.

 

the article though focuses on cannabis detection, for the punishment of cannabis impaired drivers

[trichcycler]

I absolutely agree with you zap.  Its like the anti driving drug to me and those whom I've known. I honestly don't know anyone who ever was arrested for being "stoned" on cannabis, probably because of these reasons. I wish alcohol caused an anti driving response as well. I know I always appoint a driver if I've been heavy toking prior, but honestly, not because I feel impaired, but because I don't want to lose my home and garden for the smell of cannabis on my hat.

[Wild Bill]

I've been told by a chemist that chewing gum will negate the mouth swab tests.

[trichcycler]

maybe?

 

but "pulling" definitely will. I was part of research for this and was used as the "positive thc" swabee dozens and dozens of trials. before, during, after toking, vaping, eating, bhang and concentrates. A simple mouth cleaning will increase a negative response to thc by over 30% toothpaste and mouthwash(alcohol) but "pulling" is hands down a winner.... delete this at once if anyone believes it can be used against a cannabis user please. private message me for more details if desired.

[imiubu]

With coconut oil?

 

Hmm... might make sense... as was earlier mentioned that thc is fat soluble.

 

Besides that... pulling makes my teeth feel groovy clean.

[GregS]

I know I understood your post to be in response to Greg. And mine was obviously in response to you.

 

Greg was talking about drivers, on topic with the OP. In my experience, most if not all cannabis users will shake off any dizziness or impairment before getting behind the wheel. I've never seen someone take a huge bong rip or eat a big brownie, act impaired, then get in a car before recovering. I've never seen an impaired cannabis user get up and decide to drive home. Someone who gets impaired by cannabis usually considers it an error and an undesirable experience, and in no way thinks "this is a good time to drive."

I got behind the wheel impaired once, and found it was impossible to drive. My speed might have been four mph. I had eaten goodies. then dabbed for the first time, in addition to passing joints. I readily gave up my keys. Right imi? I have driven to the Gulf and Pacific coasts burning there and back a few hits at a time with no ill effects.

[imiubu]

Them edibles sneak up on you for sure.  haha, I recall Greg and for us it may have been a bit amusing but... the point is,

once we both realized I could walk faster than the car was moving and I asked if you would like me to take over.. you

very simply said; yes, would you please?  What I found interesting is that I knew where we were but not were we were

going.. you however navigated excellently.

 

I had a similar experience last summer with medibles and there is no way I would have driven.

 

This imho is the vast difference between using cannabis and using alcohol then choosing to drive.

Try talking the keys from an inebriated person who is determined to drive.

[Alphabob]

There are so many problems related to using THC similarly to a BAC test. The states that have enacted 5 ng/ml limits did not base it on valid science. It seems likely that Michigan will try to pass a 5 ng/ml law with their proposed study of other states. The science just isn’t there, as there are as many studies showing a positive effect as there are showing a negative effect around 5 – 20 ng/ml.

 

Why not run real life experiments like this but larger scaled; all three of the drivers passed the tests up to around 60 ng/ml, when they began to drive too slow or hit objects (60-90 ng/ml): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw1HavgoK9E

 

Also, what about dronabinol or marinol medications? I was prescribed 20mg a day, which according to a study on blood THC levels would have been ranging from 10-15 ng/ml for the following 5 hours. I took those for several years and never had any problems driving. Then there is the issue of blood THC concentrations rapidly changing over the course of hours, so when someone is tested also becomes crucial.

 

5 ng/ml = fraud, discrimination, ect.

>20 ng/ml = reasonable

>50 ng/ml = upper limit

Edited February 11, 2016 by Alphabob

[t-pain]

theres a reason why pot smokers can play sports and video games while stoned.

 

where as drunks can have trouble even walking or standing.

[bobandtorey]

I'd love to see real tests on that, as I don't think they would show impairment, at least for patients.

 

 

And test case's you will see i heard numbers like 3 - 4  ng/ml

[Alphabob]

The only real study I can find that claims to match BAC with D9-THC is by NIDA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrLSr_O7e0Y). From what I remember through various articles on this topic, the effects of cannabis and alcohol are dependent on what is being measured. For example, reaction time, weaving and other measurements vary between these. The strongest impairment for THC was weaving/staying in the lane, where the NIDA experiment claims that 13.1 ng/ml of THC is equivalent to 0.08 BAC. However, this does not directly equate to accidents (how BAC is compared) and many of the other parameters seemed not to vary with respect to THC only. If one were to make a law similar to how the BAC laws were made, they need to consider real life statistics with blood drawn at the time of the accident (which isn’t happening).

 

So in the end blood THC limits are futile and officers should use their standard methods to test for intoxication. If we make a law that expects X amount of time before testing a person, there would be too much variation for each case in the real world (i.e. the time from accident to blood drawn). For example, if you were smoking just prior to an accident your blood THC levels might be around 70ng/ml. The usual time to get your blood drawn can be anywhere from 1 – 4 hours, where blood THC would decrease to 1-10 ng/ml. Thus not only is it impossible to study THC in the same way that alcohol has been studied, but the methods in which THC is tested can impart significant biases from case to case and the resulting scientific studies.

 

As I’ve said before, even after legalizing it they will still find ways to harass us. Adding a blood THC limit of 5 ng/ml would be the new improper transportation.

[bobandtorey]

Like Washington they have a 5 ng/mi limit OWI our soaring i am sure at the Lansing meeting one Leo told them wants you our pulled over then a drug Leo will show-up and do his test and his training is only two weeks long so i agree they will always find a way until we all come together as one

[trichcycler]

A patient would be wise to put their stash in the trunk while driving. Maybe NOT store rolling papers next to your drivers license, or in the ash tray. I don't even carry a lighter when transporting. no papers, one hitters, pipes, etc. common sense can negate much of this whole witch hunt possibly.

[zachw]

A patient would be wise to put their stash in the trunk while driving. Maybe NOT store rolling papers next to your drivers license, or in the ash tray. I don't even carry a lighter when transporting. no papers, one hitters, pipes, etc. common sense can negate much of this whole witch hunt possibly.

 

Yep, good advice. I NEVER carry cannabis in the car cabin, only in the trunk. If I go to a dispensary, my bag immediately goes into the trunk.  I NEVER smoke in the car, except if I'm sitting in my garage!

 

When I was younger, I would often blaze a doobie while driving. The car reeked, my eyes would be glazed. Even though I've always been a cautious driver, I was lucky and was never pulled over. The stupidity of youth. 

[trichcycler]

^ that, me too

[bobandtorey]

 Me three