Open Discussion With Potential New Patients Is Harder Than I Anticipated

[gretta47]

I am sitting here scratching my head after talking on the phone with a potential new patient that was looking for a caregiver. This is the third time I have had people say something to the effect that I am making this harder than it has to be.  No wonder most of you deal with close friends and family for your patients. I think I am ready to just call it quits as people astonish me with their lack of regard for the legalities on this patient to caregiver relationship.  Can you all give me a way to have a good discussion with a potential new patient?  What are some good questions to lead with? I start out asking about what  their medical needs are and confirm they do in fact have a MMMJ card. Then I try to touch on a bonafide relationship with their Dr. ..as in a follow up at least once ( in regards to making sure that their card is upheld/ validated in court if any problem arises) and that is where people seem to think i am 

a nit picker.... maybe i am not explaining myself in a concise follow along manner......but people dont get where I am going and when I say it could be the difference between me going to jail or not they say something to the effect that I  am worrying more than i should or overthinking, complicating matters which are simple. Are patients not educated? I am just disheartened.  Any suggestions? As with anything I know you should start light and move gradually into more intense questioning/discussions.....how do I have a productive discussion? Thank you. 

[zachw]

A caregiver only needs to know that I have a valid card, and any medical information that I care to divulge for treating my condition. The relationship that I have with my certifying doctor really isn't their business and I would personally pass on a caregiver that insisted that I have a followup with said doctor.

[Kingdiamond]

A caregiver only needs to know that I have a valid card, and any medical information that I care to divulge for treating my condition. The relationship that I have with my certifying doctor really isn't their business and I would personally pass on a caregiver that insisted that I have a followup with said doctor.

Thing is all of that is required and the condition question comes up because a caregiver needs to know what type of strains to acquire to assist that patients specific needs.

[garyfisher]

i always request to know who the physician is but I do not require my patients to followup any visits until before their card expires.

[trichcycler]

I am sitting here scratching my head after talking on the phone with a potential new patient that was looking for a caregiver. This is the third time I have had people say something to the effect that I am making this harder than it has to be.  No wonder most of you deal with close friends and family for your patients. I think I am ready to just call it quits as people astonish me with their lack of regard for the legalities on this patient to caregiver relationship.  Can you all give me a way to have a good discussion with a potential new patient?  What are some good questions to lead with? I start out asking about what  their medical needs are and confirm they do in fact have a MMMJ card. Then I try to touch on a bonafide relationship with their Dr. ..as in a follow up at least once ( in regards to making sure that their card is upheld/ validated in court if any problem arises) and that is where people seem to think i am 

a nit picker.... maybe i am not explaining myself in a concise follow along manner......but people dont get where I am going and when I say it could be the difference between me going to jail or not they say something to the effect that I  am worrying more than i should or overthinking, complicating matters which are simple. Are patients not educated? I am just disheartened.  Any suggestions? As with anything I know you should start light and move gradually into more intense questioning/discussions.....how do I have a productive discussion? Thank you.

Welcome to our plight! I see little changes in patient attitudes since 2008. I used to deal with the same as you, I stopped caregiving for a year. Now I use a caregiver/patient matching service that takes care of some of the interview in an automatic format, all before recommending any pt/cg pairing. I've had no more issues since then.

 

Some patients still regard growers as dealers. Some are experienced cannabis users and some are not. Some have past cg's and some haven't smoked a joint ever. Young/old, married/single, children or not/ married/single etc all are concerns for me.

 

No problems ever with strain supply but personality conflicts do occur. With such a pita to kill plants, find patients to replace, lose genetics, etc, I'd rather have no patients in the first place than one for 6 months.

 

I concentrate on patients lifestyle rather than strains desired. We all know every strain will be different for everyone. Patients think that like Rx, there is a strain for every malady, and it just isn't true, consistently. So I play along, offer every strain un named, ask for the worst of the bunch, and reasons, then go from there.

 

I'll share this--All too often the un named strains that are the worst for them become their favorite once labeled later, even for the same plant! qwazy but whatever.

 

send me a pm and I'll share a bunch of those caregiving/patient matching services. Some free, some not, all only as good as the posters who visit though. I've never encountered one that collected private info beyond an avatar name and some personal herb preferences, availability, etc,, no worries.

 

pass on the ones that grind you the wrong way immediately. I don't compromise one bit in my service. Patients must match my needs 100%before I consider them for registry. Its your registry, own it !!

Patients become problematic when we don't do our job, starting with a compatibility interview.

 

better luck next time!

 

ps= I don't meet or talk with anyone until I am most assured of a successful registration. I wont meet anyone until their finished paperwork is forwarded to me for completion and mailing. No phones ever. text and email only for me.

Edited March 18, 2016 by grassmatch

[zachw]

Thing is all of that is required and the condition question comes up because a caregiver needs to know what type of strains to acquire to assist that patients specific needs.

 

Well yeah, I sort of said that when stating "and any medical information that I care to divulge for treating my condition".

 

But the caregiver doesn't need to know who my doctor is, when I visit the doctor, or any specific details about my condition that I do not care to reveal.

 

A caregiver is NOT A DOCTOR!

[phaquetoo]

I would want to know what dr. certed them and if they have been seeing that dr. to renew!

 

You dont want some pt's that have a Dr. that cant keep their nose clean if or when you need your dr. in court.  you need the dr. to be able to show up and help you,  you most def dont want one that dont have your medical records and know all about your medical needs.   You dont want a dr. that is only in it for the $, they may be gone when you need them next or lose their liscense, Its almost as hard to find a good dr. as it is a good c.g!

 

@ gm your advise is solid!

 

Peace

[trichcycler]

with so much to consider for a caregiver to remain safe, seems nutty when patients mention free ounces

Would have been nice to already know a couple family members who could help with the bills and keep in private. A caregiver cannot guarantee that their patient wont sell some to their trusted buddy to split the costs too. Theres no way to know if they'll be in court, if their doc would show up or not. Its a scary thing for some.

[Willy]

It was brought up in a court case, not so long ago,.... a CG wasn't allowed a medical use defense, because he didn't know what ailment effected his patient, didn't know how much meds his patients took to alleviate his condition. and I believe didn't know his patients doctor name. ( I think that was mentioned as well) 
And on top of that a couple of his patients blew him off, would not go to court to prove they were valid...

 

Myself, I ask what the maladie is, how much they take daily, (an estimate) and check the card. I like to personally have a general idea who im gonna be working with for the next two years.For me its not cut and dry pure business. I see it as getting to know someone new... I always say, if I wouldnt be friends with them, then i likely can't be there CG. I always give time to my patients, and enjoy hearing from them.

 

I know trust can be betrayed. sad state of some MJ folks.. I have had my share of phaq ups.. but i dont let that hold me down. Do what you feel is needed for your safety and well being. Be informed is your right. Perhaps you could explain that as a cg your kinda expected to know there basics. Just in case. IF they dont ike that, phaq em!,,, JMHO

Edited March 18, 2016 by Willy

[trichcycler]

Until just a few days ago I was able to say NO patient I ever interviewed over the age of 50 had any issue with me holding a copy of their md cert and their card from day one. I have had 3 under 30 patients that were real stand up guys(one gal) I was skeptical but only because of their age, but turned out they were right as rain. Today its not worth the anxiety of waiting for something to go wrong with the youngins. I find they often shop, they often sell, they often complain, they often show up late, they often are laid off, broke up, kicked out, and love the strains that make you drool on the couch. Its been a pleasure being a cg since I recognized the trend in those patients for me.

[imiubu]

It was brought up in a court case, not so long ago,.... a CG wasn't allowed a medical use defense, because he didn't know what ailment effected his patient, didn't know how much meds his patients took to alleviate his condition. and I believe didn't know his patients doctor name. ( I think that was mentioned as well) 

And on top of that a couple of his patients blew him off, would not go to court to prove they were valid...

 

Myself, I ask what the maladie is, how much they take daily, (an estimate) and check the card. I like to personally have a general idea who im gonna be working with for the next two years.For me its not cut and dry pure business. I see it as getting to know someone new... I always say, if I wouldnt be friends with them, then i likely can't be there CG. I always give time to my patients, and enjoy hearing from them.

 

I know trust can be betrayed. sad state of some MJ folks.. I have had my share of phaq ups.. but i dont let that hold me down. Do what you feel is needed for your safety and well being. Be informed is your right. Perhaps you could explain that as a cg your kinda expected to know there basics. Just in case. IF they dont ike that, phaq em!,,, JMHO

 

There was a ruling/ opinion w/e that the results put more weight on the CG to know who their PT doc was and the issues the PT was treating as the CG assists in the

medical use of cannabis.

 

 

 

 

Maybe one of the members more versed in this area will chime in to clarify.

[Dr. Bob]

Since you asked so nicely-

 

Yes there was the Hardwick ruling that talked about closer ties between caregivers and their patients but that was modified downward on appeal.  

 

We have always recommended that caregivers work with their patient to better tailor strains to specific conditions.  We also acknowledge the weakness that prosecutors most commonly attempt to exploit is the dr/pt relationship so caregivers, for their own safety, should feel comfortable with that relationship if they take on a patient.  This is because, in court, caregivers are frequently challenged on what constitutes 'reasonable amount'- it is really nice to be able to come back and say 'well for my patient's multiple sclerosis they are needing about 3/4 ounce a week of this strain'.  This goes over far better than 'I give them what they want when they want it and don't ask questions'.  If you patient got a mail order certification without records from a doc that never shows up in court, I think that might come up too- and you are the one in the hot seat, not them.

 

Again, it is just risk management- anticipate the questions the prosecutor will try and trick you up on, and have solid answers for them.  The MMMA is not popular with LEO, Prosecutors and the Courts, preparation and being in compliance (even going a little beyond that to show you care about being legal) goes a long ways.

 

Hope that helps-

 

Dr. Bob

[Restorium2]

Since you asked so nicely-

 

Yes there was the Hardwick ruling that talked about closer ties between caregivers and their patients but that was modified downward on appeal.  

 

We have always recommended that caregivers work with their patient to better tailor strains to specific conditions.  We also acknowledge the weakness that prosecutors most commonly attempt to exploit is the dr/pt relationship so caregivers, for their own safety, should feel comfortable with that relationship if they take on a patient.  This is because, in court, caregivers are frequently challenged on what constitutes 'reasonable amount'- it is really nice to be able to come back and say 'well for my patient's multiple sclerosis they are needing about 3/4 ounce a week of this strain'.  This goes over far better than 'I give them what they want when they want it and don't ask questions'.  If you patient got a mail order certification without records from a doc that never shows up in court, I think that might come up too- and you are the one in the hot seat, not them.

 

Again, it is just risk management- anticipate the questions the prosecutor will try and trick you up on, and have solid answers for them.  The MMMA is not popular with LEO, Prosecutors and the Courts, preparation and being in compliance (even going a little beyond that to show you care about being legal) goes a long ways.

 

Hope that helps-

 

Dr. Bob

Did the pharmacies that your patients went to get their pain killer prescriptions filled, that were subject to an alleged poor doctor patient relationship, get investigated? Do you think that they should have been? Further, do you think that caregivers are getting undo scrutiny compared to pharmacies that are pretty much left to fill a prescription at face value without having any idea of the doctor patient relationship that spawned the prescriptions?

[Dr. Bob]

Did the pharmacies that your patients went to get their pain killer prescriptions filled, that were subject to an alleged poor doctor patient relationship, get investigated? Do you think that they should have been? Further, do you think that caregivers are getting undo scrutiny compared to pharmacies that are pretty much left to fill a prescription at face value without having any idea of the doctor patient relationship that spawned the prescriptions?

 

Actually pharmacies are investigated all the time (Walmart and the Florida Pill Mills comes to mind at once).  But this isn't about me, nor it is about pharmacies.  It is about medical marijuana caregivers, who are not pharmacies, and are regularly made parts of section 8 defenses.  In fact, pharmacies regularly refuse to fill pain and suboxone scripts out of FEAR of bringing leo down on themselves, or the DEA.  And to add a little more information, pharmacies are rationed scheduled meds by the drug wholesalers, as part of this very high suspicion they face from LEO and the DEA.

 

Unless you have been to more section 8 defenses than I have, which is highly doubtful, I would suggest that this information could be of help to caregivers.  Because, yes, they are unfairly being targeted.  And they are being asked to justify all sorts of things related to amounts, conditions, and are being subjected to charges such as maintaining drug houses, manufacturing, and distribution.

 

Dr. Bob

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/50208-hartwick-was-sentenced-to-2-40-years-wtf/

Edited March 18, 2016 by Dr. Bob

[Restorium2]

Actually pharmacies are investigated all the time (Walmart and the Florida Pill Mills comes to mind at once).  But this isn't about me, nor it is about pharmacies.  It is about medical marijuana caregivers, who are not pharmacies, and are regularly made parts of section 8 defenses.  In fact, pharmacies regularly refuse to fill pain and suboxone scripts out of FEAR of bringing leo down on themselves, or the DEA.  And to add a little more information, pharmacies are rationed scheduled meds by the drug wholesalers, as part of this very high suspicion they face from LEO and the DEA.

 

Unless you have been to more section 8 defenses than I have, which is highly doubtful, I would suggest that this information could be of help to caregivers.  Because, yes, they are unfairly being targeted.  And they are being asked to justify all sorts of things related to amounts, conditions, and are being subjected to charges such as maintaining drug houses, manufacturing, and distribution.

 

Dr. Bob

You are saying that pharmacies have some idea of specific doctor patient relationships when they fill prescriptions? Or are they totally clueless(like mine)?

[Dr. Bob]

You are saying that pharmacies have some idea of specific doctor patient relationships when they fill prescriptions? Or are they totally clueless(like mine)?

 

I know the pill mills and bad doctors in each of my office areas.  You honestly don't think the pharmacies don't make note of when they see scripts for 500 morphines a month on a regular basis from certain doctors?  Do you think they don't take note when LEO shows up and says 'We are investigating Dr. X because he has a big practice and doesn't take insurance?' even if Dr. X writes very conservative scripts?

 

Why don't you actually ask the pharmacists if they have doctors in their area they have concerns about, without asking them to mention names?  I bet you will see that there are local doctors on the radar.

 

Again, this isn't about pharmacies, it is about caregivers and what the can and should do to protect themselves in case they ever find themselves in court.  Some things, like keeping track of amounts and strains, and what condition they are working with, and who the doctor is may not be mandatory, but they are very good ideas for the protection of caregivers.  Everyone is comfortable with a certain amount of risk, which varies between people.  If folks want less risk, there is a outline of things that can be done to reduce that risk, because those points come up regularly at section 8 hearings.

 

Dr. Bob

[Restorium2]

I know the pill mills and bad doctors in each of my office areas.  You honestly don't think the pharmacies don't make note of when they see scripts for 500 morphines a month on a regular basis from certain doctors?  Do you think they don't take note when LEO shows up and says 'We are investigating Dr. X because he has a big practice and doesn't take insurance?' even if Dr. X writes very conservative scripts?

 

Why don't you actually ask the pharmacists if they have doctors in their area they have concerns about, without asking them to mention names?  I bet you will see that there are local doctors on the radar.

 

Again, this isn't about pharmacies, it is about caregivers and what the can and should do to protect themselves in case they ever find themselves in court.  Some things, like keeping track of amounts and strains, and what condition they are working with, and who the doctor is may not be mandatory, but they are very good ideas for the protection of caregivers.  Everyone is comfortable with a certain amount of risk, which varies between people.  If folks want less risk, there is a outline of things that can be done to reduce that risk, because those points come up regularly at section 8 hearings.

 

Dr. Bob

Of course a pharmacy would see a trend of abuse if one patient comes in and gets more pills than one person can use.

 

What I was asking is do they check and see if a patient has a bona fide doctor patient relationship? Do they ask you how many times you saw your doctor? Are there double standards going on? 

[Dr. Bob]

Of course a pharmacy would see a trend of abuse if one patient comes in and gets more pills than one person can use.

 

What I was asking is do they check and see if a patient has a bona fide doctor patient relationship? Do they ask you how many times you saw your doctor? Are there double standards going on? 

 

Not double standards, just different ones.  Pharmacies are pharmacies, caregivers are viewed in the light of the MMMA and are doing something that LEO views, shall we say, differently than they see pharmacies.

 

One very clear example of this different view held by LEO, prosecutors and the courts is the problem of using cannabis (even with a card) on probation.  The courts like to cite following all laws (to include federal law).  They also treat cannabis as a recreational, rather than a medical, substance without the protections that a /prescribed/ substance such as vicodin or valium enjoys.  If a patient on probation has a legal prescription for ambien, very few judges would not honor the prescription that allows them to take it.  They will regularly refuse to honor the certification, as will employers, because it is not 'prescribed'.  This is an issue I specifically want to address if I am ever in a position to do so.

 

While caregivers are not pharmacists, that is a two edge sword.  They simply do not get the respect a pharmacist would, nor are they 'viewed' as doing work that is as 'respectable' as pharmacy.  They grow pot, pot is an illegal drug, and pot is a problem.  That is how they look at it.  To overcome that, the caregiver first must overcome that bias by coming off as medical and professional as they can.  They need to sell the judge and jury that they are upstanding citizens doing a good job for a good reason.  Then, and only then, do they get a chance to 'prove their compliance' in the eyes of the court.

 

Ask a lawyer.  Ask him/her what their 'dream case' when it comes to a section 8 is.  I am willing to bet that it will be a well documented patient, that went to a respected physician, did follow up with that doctor, and a good relationship with a caregiver that was familiar with their case, had a reason to pick the strain they did and that reason was directly in line with their condition/symptoms, and they could very clearly justify the amount they were using and possessing.

 

I saw a great visual the other day-  it said 

 

If you carry a baseball bat in your car, make sure you also have a glove.  Your lawyer will thank you.

 

Just something to think about-

 

Dr. Bob

Edited March 18, 2016 by Dr. Bob

[trichcycler]

To overcome that, the caregiver first must overcome that bias by coming off as medical and professional as they can. They need to sell the judge and jury that they are upstanding citizens doing a good job for a good reason

 

 

 good advice there imo that alone might keep patients and caregivers out of court in the first place.

[+Malamute]

We are talking about "Unauthorized Practice of Medicine" in my opinion.  Where does a caregiver have any right to know any of this(condition, physician etc), or make random suggestions for dosages and such?

 

 Although I understand how the Michigan Republican Courts have been,.. I feel  stating any of those things about dosages etc is outside the realm,  even for physicians in Michigan.

[Norby]

Not double standards, just different ones.  Pharmacies are pharmacies, caregivers are viewed in the light of the MMMA and are doing something that LEO views, shall we say, differently than they see pharmacies.

 

One very clear example of this different view held by LEO, prosecutors and the courts is the problem of using cannabis (even with a card) on probation.  The courts like to cite following all laws (to include federal law).  They also treat cannabis as a recreational, rather than a medical, substance without the protections that a /prescribed/ substance such as vicodin or valium enjoys.  If a patient on probation has a legal prescription for ambien, very few judges would not honor the prescription that allows them to take it.  They will regularly refuse to honor the certification, as will employers, because it is not 'prescribed'.  This is an issue I specifically want to address if I am ever in a position to do so.

 

While caregivers are not pharmacists, that is a two edge sword.  They simply do not get the respect a pharmacist would, nor are they 'viewed' as doing work that is as 'respectable' as pharmacy.  They grow pot, pot is an illegal drug, and pot is a problem.  That is how they look at it.  To overcome that, the caregiver first must overcome that bias by coming off as medical and professional as they can.  They need to sell the judge and jury that they are upstanding citizens doing a good job for a good reason.  Then, and only then, do they get a chance to 'prove their compliance' in the eyes of the court.

 

Ask a lawyer.  Ask him/her what their 'dream case' when it comes to a section 8 is.  I am willing to bet that it will be a well documented patient, that went to a respected physician, did follow up with that doctor, and a good relationship with a caregiver that was familiar with their case, had a reason to pick the strain they did and that reason was directly in line with their condition/symptoms, and they could very clearly justify the amount they were using and possessing.

 

I saw a great visual the other day-  it said 

 

If you carry a baseball bat in your car, make sure you also have a glove.  Your lawyer will thank you.

 

Just something to think about-

 

Dr. Bob

Strains are not good for conditions.  An individual plant is good for a patients specific symptoms.  2 sister plants from the same cross can have very different effects.  As for how much a person goes thru depends upon cash flow and how much pain they can deal with, what season it is and whether tehy are having a flare or not. The written info can be used against you just as easily as for you if they decide to nit pick.  So basically you want to make something up that is consistent thru the whole year as an average so that a patient going on vacation for a month isn't held under the microscope or a batch for them to make medibles for a couple months alongside their weekly purchase for smoking?  Maybe site a seedbank website stating that a "strain" is good for certain "conditions"?  Where are teh courts going to decide if you are lying about a "strain" being good for a certain "condition"?  I know this is the world you live in with metered dosing and certain drugs good for certain "conditions" but that's not how MJ works. Myself I take more or less CBD depending on whether I have to be social or not.  More or less THC if I'm in a flare or not and more CBD if I'm taking more THC.  Certain plants are daytime and nightime and it's just the THC that works and they can use any strain they want.  Some prefer taste and smell of a strain because they just need the THC or CBD and the terpenes and flavenoids just accentuate the mental effects but the THC or CBD alone mediate the pain.  So if you go this route your basically making a defense that sounds good as there is no baseline for strains and amounts.

[Dr. Bob]

Spoken like a true caregiver- one that understands the use of cannabis and how it is tailored to conditions.  Excellent suggestion and strategy.

 

Remember, the take home point must be to be able to explain, clearly and with some authority, what you are doing and why.  Your counter to 'I just gave him what he wanted and could afford and didn't ask questions'.  That will not sell to the court.  Your explanation paints a clear and convincing argument that the cannabis is being used to TREAT a condition, not get someone high as a recreational substance.

 

Just to follow up on that last point, folks like recreational substances and cannabis is clearly one of the safest they can use for fun, but we don't have recreational cannabis laws in this state, and we can't use recreation arguments if we end up in court.  I've never penalized a patient for the use of cannabis in 35 years of practice at various levels, but my tolerance does not equate to the courts' tolerance- an important point to keep in mind.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Indica v Sativa is ok for generalities, but what matters is the effect on the individual patient.  We both understand that.  We both understand the concept of 'uninterrupted supply'.  But the key is being able to explain it to people that know little if anything about it and are predisposed to deny it has any benefit.

 

Dr. Bob

[t-pain]

one of the court of appeals rulings had that strain and patient info/amounts required but that was all shot down by the michigan supreme court in its latest mmma ruling.

 

http://courts.mi.gov/Courts/MichiganSupremeCourt/Clerks/Recent%20Opinions/14-15-Term-Opinions/148444%20and%20148971%20Opinion.pdf

 

i suggest you read it.

 

also just reading the act invalidates your claim a caregiver should know anything about his patients.

(h) "Primary caregiver" or "caregiver" means a person who is at least 21 years old and who has agreed to assist with a patient's medical use of marihuana

 

assist. not prescribe. not take over. not dose (except parental caregivers). not control. not monitor. not keep records of strains. assist. plain english reading of the act.

 

i know no one will believe me. but its right in the opinion , page 8 footnote 14

 

14 We do not use the terms “patient” and “caregiver” in the traditional sense associated

with a patient/medical provider relationship.

 

Rather, we use these terms because they are used in the MMMA.

 

Under the MMMA, a medical marijuana user, or “patient,” may

elect to either manufacture marijuana for personal medical use or have someone else

manufacture and supply marijuana to him or her. Such a supplier is known under the

MMMA as a “primary caregiver.”

 

We refer to the qualifying patient as being his or her

“own caregiver” when the patient has not designated a primary caregiver. We use the

terms “patient” and “caregiver” throughout this opinion simply to track the language of

the MMMA and not to suggest that someone asserting a defense or immunity under the

MMMA is a “patient” or “caregiver” as those terms are generally understood.

thats it. the court plainly says "a patient may have someone else supply marijuana to him/her". thats all a caregiver is. a marijuana supplier.

 

 

it goes on, into this crazy making whoopee sentence.

 

Whether one is a “patient” or “caregiver” under the MMMA, as opposed to a supplier or user of illegal marijuana, is a question to be resolved on a case-by-case basis.

marijuana is illegal folks. the highest court in the land just said the only thing keeping you a patient vs a illegal user is the court, on a case by case basis. wow.

[Norby]

Spoken like a true caregiver- one that understands the use of cannabis and how it is tailored to conditions.  Excellent suggestion and strategy.

 

Remember, the take home point must be to be able to explain, clearly and with some authority, what you are doing and why.  Your counter to 'I just gave him what he wanted and could afford and didn't ask questions'.  That will not sell to the court.  Your explanation paints a clear and convincing argument that the cannabis is being used to TREAT a condition, not get someone high as a recreational substance.

 

Just to follow up on that last point, folks like recreational substances and cannabis is clearly one of the safest they can use for fun, but we don't have recreational cannabis laws in this state, and we can't use recreation arguments if we end up in court.  I've never penalized a patient for the use of cannabis in 35 years of practice at various levels, but my tolerance does not equate to the courts' tolerance- an important point to keep in mind.

 

Dr. Bob

But that equates to "I supply my patients and don't ask questions".  I give answers, to the best of my abilities or say I don't know, if they ask questions.  I don't pry as it's not my job.  If they need a ride to the docs and open up I talk and give rides.  BUt none of that is required.  The only thing that's required is that I have mj for them to be their caregiver.

  I'm having a deja vu here.  Even if that's what a jury or judge wants because they think it's all recreational, it isn't right.  It's not my job in court to convince anyone that MJ is medicinal.  They want to put us on the ropes like that but that's already been settled by the people.  That I can have 2.5 ozs. or whatever is necessary to treat my patients.  Limits at all puts us against the ropes between compassion and jail for helping a cancer patient. Having to justify being under the 2.5oz limit and strains and such is strait BS as they wouldn't understand it anyway. Being over limit should be as easy to get out of as the words I have a cancer patient.  Or I have a crohn's patient, or they have disc problems.  Why do they think there is the words as much as necessary for an uninterupted supply?  So that people don't have to use electric and can grow it all at once.  But the law doesn't like that.  At some point we have to get them on the defense or well just get backed all the way to the point that the law is useless. T's post about the courts deciding on a case by case basis should be enough proof that ANY problems with the way the law is going is politicians cops and courts, not dispensaries and people acting "outside the law". They want EVERYTHING to be outside the law.