Plant Questions

[junkman]

I am growing Tangerine dream in a drip hydro return system watered ever 1 hrs for 15 min in daytime hrs. seeing some issues I am not sure of. I lowered the nutes but does not seem to have helped.

 

pictures below

 

 

 

thanks in advance,

 

using H&G full line 

 

 

 

[junkman]

P.S I am a new comer here so if this is not posted the the correct place let me know.

 

Thanks

[Indigro]

There is def a prob w the what is going on in the medium/nutes.

 

Basic info is needed to help, and the culprit is going to be here w this info:

- what is your ec reading w a fresh tank

- what is your starting ph w a fresh tank

- what is the medium in those 5gal buckets

- how big is the rez and how often r u topping it off

- how do u top off

- what does the tank ph and ec do after the first drip cycle

- what does it do after a full day of feeds

- have u ever actually picked up the buckets when fully soaked, and how much does it weigh (comparatively) after an hour

- do u have a way to d2w a flush

- have u ever actually equalized a flush, and to what readings if so, and w what kind of volume, and how

- and on the outside chance, have u looked for root aphids

 

My guess is u r either watering way too often, have an elevated ec, and/or the ph is off... Problem is based in what is happening in the medium w the roots. U need to give us much more info on what u have been doing to make them so unhappy. We can then identify what u have done wrong and suggest corrective action. Otherwise w r just guessing, but yeah, they dont look good.

[trichcycler]

hot nutrients, substrate needs serious flushings in between feedings. I fed mine for 3 minutes every 4 hours, with pure water at the last nightly feeding. there is no perfect feed times, but pure water is necessary when working with salts.

 

no worries plans are strong, yours will be well I hope

[Restorium2]

I would run that pump on continuous for a while. Was your res left stagnant between feedings? An hour of sitting lets the nutes settle. 

[junkman]

I would run that pump on continuous for a while. Was your res left stagnant between feedings? An hour of sitting lets the nutes settle. 

 I do not think its stagnant, as the massive air pump with 2 6" stones its mixing all the time.  I was running 24 /7 and at first thought it was nute burn. but cutting nutes back and putting on a timer, did not help. I am leaning on deficiencies now.

[junkman]

There is def a prob w the what is going on in the medium/nutes.

 

Basic info is needed to help, and the culprit is going to be here w this info:

- what is your ec reading w a fresh tank

 

last batch was 530   ( I had dropped the nutes thinking this was a burn)  before this is was about 750 fresh

- what is your starting ph w a fresh tank

 

5.5 - 6.5 

- what is the medium in those 5gal buckets

 

growstone substrate ( white looking rocks)

- how big is the rez and how often r u topping it off

 

the res is filled with about 17 - 18 gal

- how do u top off

 

depending on readings I add phed water, or a week nute of a & b to boost it up

- what does the tank ph and ec do after the first drip cycle

 

based off last batch it started at 530 ppm and 5.9ph @ 11:32am   daytime  then at 4:30 pm readings were 420 ppm and 6.2

 

then the next day at 9pm 6.6 and 320 ppm  >>>> added 1 gal tap water and 25ml of A&B to final readings of 5.78 and 500 ppm

 

readings today at 9am   6.3 and 440 ppm

 

what does it do after a full day of feeds

- have u ever actually picked up the buckets when fully soaked, and how much does it weigh (comparatively) after an hour

 

no, due to water standing in buckets during feed ( take a bit to drain back and the fittings are as low in the buckets as can be.

- do u have a way to d2w a flush

 

I have been flushing in between nute changes  >>   phed water with drip clean only for 24 hrs. then back to nutes ( they seem to like the flush)

 

 

- have u ever actually equalized a flush, and to what readings if so, and w what kind of volume, and how

- and on the outside chance, have u looked for root aphids

 

not sure what that means but the roots are white as snow and no slime, they look good

 

My guess is u r either watering way too often, have an elevated ec, and/or the ph is off... Problem is based in what is happening in the medium w the roots. U need to give us much more info on what u have been doing to make them so unhappy. We can then identify what u have done wrong and suggest corrective action. Otherwise w r just guessing, but yeah, they dont look good.

 

other info

 

I have 4 plants total  

northern lights 5 + skunk ( looks great )

Star Bud ( looks good i tad bit of leaf twist.)  

Fools Gold ( looks like mag deficiency )

Tangerine dream  ( worst looking  biggest root ball ) pictured

 

I believe these are not all compatible and was not my first choice to do in hydro, but I got free clones off the top of healthy plants)  most likely I will clone the NL and keep it going.

 

I am tending to think its a deficiency rather than too much as I first thought.

 

Thanks

 

 

[junkman]

hot nutrients, substrate needs serious flushings in between feedings. I fed mine for 3 minutes every 4 hours, with pure water at the last nightly feeding. there is no perfect feed times, but pure water is necessary when working with salts.

 

no worries plans are strong, yours will be well I hope

nutes are between 60 - 70 f  and I use roots excelerator from H&G  0 root root  roots look great.    I use a drip return so flushing every night wont be possible. I flush about every 7 - 10 days  at nute change.  when my ppm gets low I add one time 1 gal with H&G  A&B to bring it up, since we never know what they used and whats missing I change nutes after than is used up. other times I add water and ph

[trichcycler]

I mean to say high ppm's of nutrient salts=hot nutes.

 

 

have you had success in previous plants using the same tools and settings?

 

have you considered changing  nutrients every 7 days without the addition of anything?

[Willy]

ppm is likely to high or PH is high, 5.9 is best for hydro.. however at a quick glance i would go to over watering.. I use H&G best thing i have ever used. never a nutrient shortage...check ph and ppm.. keep ppm under 1200 

 

http://www.thenug.com/images/diagnose-your-sick-marijuana-plants-img-10

Edited March 29, 2016 by Willy

[Willy]

I mean to say high ppm's of nutrient salts=hot nutes.

 

 

have you had success in previous plants using the same tools and settings?

 

have you considered changing  nutrients every 7 days without the addition of anything?

 i am pretty sure this the problem,, or just too much water.. water every 4 hours for 5 mins..

Edited March 29, 2016 by Willy

[junkman]

 i am pretty sure this the problem,, or just too much water.. water every 4 hours for 5 mins..

in the same grow I am running a northern lights strain she looks good and start bud looks pretty good had a bit of twisting, but seems to have gotten better.

 

the TD on the other hand is getting worse. new groth doing the same thing tips turning down and dry feeling.  PPM this am is 400 ph is in range of 5.5 - 6.5 and was 6.0 this am . later I will ph it down to 5.5 or close then let it rise to 6.5 max then ph again.

 

all of these plants were clones ( from top)  they rooted for 30 days in cloner with clonex as feed. now they have been in veg for 30 days.  I think I am close to going into flower soon.  

 

The Fools Gold I am almost 100% its   mag deficiency,  this is why I been letting the ph range within 5.5 - 6.5 so it can get mag at higher ph.

 

Thanks again guys 

[Restorium2]

Maybe your ph meter is off? Happens.

[trichcycler]

it may be a "deficiency" caused by your environmental controls, not because it needs more of an element necessarily. For instance while you provide everything the plant needs the current ph prohibits the plant from uptaking key elements causing a deficiency to report.

 

Your choice of hydro nutes is superb, it contains all of the key elements for proper growth. You could even stop the additives until smoothly running. I ran it over and over with dozens of different strains with no issues. calibrate meters like resto suggested. keep us updated too, we all hate when someone has a garden issue. Don't flower until you put their health in check. Some strains can handle higher ppm while others cannot. 400 is low enough to indicate a different issue. try plain water for a day, clean your res with peroxide, lines too. speaking of lines.....are you using 1/4' black ones? non silicone?

 

water from tap?

list additives?

Edited March 30, 2016 by grassmatch

[junkman]

it may be a "deficiency" caused by your environmental controls, not because it needs more of an element necessarily. For instance while you provide everything the plant needs the current ph prohibits the plant from uptaking key elements causing a deficiency to report.

 

 

 I have a calibrated wal mount unit on the res, 

then I have 2 hand held units. I used calibration water to cal the ec meters and ph buffer to cal the ph meters, I have compared them to a friends and there so close.

 

Your choice of hydro nutes is superb, it contains all of the key elements for proper growth. You could even stop the additives until smoothly running. I ran it over and over with dozens of different strains with no issues. calibrate meters like resto suggested. keep us updated too, we all hate when someone has a garden issue. Don't flower until you put their health in check. Some strains can handle higher ppm while others cannot. 400 is low enough to indicate a different issue. try plain water for a day, clean your res with peroxide, lines too. speaking of lines.....are you using 1/4' black ones? non silicone?

 

yes black non silicone my pump pumps out via 1/2 black hydro line to a manifold in the tent then 1/4 to the drip rings ( all from hydro supply ) 

 

water from tap?  mostly rain water, I have added tap to get some minerals after  it gets low of water 

list additives?

 

all H&G

 

algen extract

root excel

drip clean

multi zen

amino treatment

Magic Green   weekly

 

 

 

 

 

 

[trichcycler]

reason I ask is some years ago I bought a roll of tubing at the grow store and found issues that baffled me in the end, and traced back to the use of this tubing.

I emailed the manu and talked with the store. of course they thought I was just boogering up my plants some other way looking for blame....but then I got an email from the manu that offered to pay me the cash I spent and replace the product for free. They recalled the tubing from the store eventually and I got free roll of blue silicone tubing, will last me a lifetime, my money, and a big "I told you so" at the store.  prolly not your issue but had to ask....never know.

[Indigro]

Junk... R u talking about the silica based growstones? About 3yrs ago i bought 4 bags and started to prep them... Used a large rez to wet and rinse is all. I couldnt get the pH from rising into mid-high 6's, after a ton of rinsing, more rinsing than iv ever tried on any medium ever. It just kept taking the pH up, and if i let it sit and soak in a 5.5 solution, the next day it would be at like 6.9. not understanding what and why, i ended up tossing all of it before ever planting in them. Apparently people grow in this stuff, and somehow people recommend it, and the couple iv asked about the pH dont mention it, so..,??? I personally think they dont properly check their runoff, and dont recognize it as a problem, and wouldnt know a healthy plant from bunk. Maybe i got 4bags of a horrible mistake in manufacturing, maybe pH no longer matters to mj, maybe...?

 

I think the problem is w the medium, and the pH in the rhizosphere is way high, and ur rez is only slowly and steadily going up because it isnt recirculating more often. I believe it will be very difficult to overcome because it is an inherent quality of the silica, assuming u r using the same product i tried, assuming what i tried is indicative of the medium itself. That is what i can offer from a little bit of past history, i never did actually run it. But i can say that iv gotten bad batches of coir that wanted to hold a very high pH and those plants looked very much like what uv got going on... At first i thought it was k def, but as grassmatch pointed out, the real culprit was something deeper than the initial diagnosis of a def... It was a effed up pH causing the uptake issues in the actual plants.

 

Only thing i would personally try, if committed to those pots, is to run it low around 5.6, and to unfortunately change out the system to a top fed d2w... And u still might not ever alter the situation to ur benefit.

 

Im not there, just linking some past experiences to what im reading. U should take a few handfuls of the growstones from each pot, enough to fill say 2gal in a separate 5 gal bucket. Fill to the top of the stones w a 5.5ph/1.0ec solution, fresh. Check the ec and ph in 6hrs, then 12, then 24. C what it does and let us know.

[junkman]

this is the growstones I am using , on the same drip return setup I have 2 other plants that seem to be doing fine ( NL and star Bud), even thru all I have tried to correct the TD.  the stones require a 24 soak then expensive rinsing. I do not think they cause any of the ph changes, I think the changes I see are normal as the ppm go down and water level goes down the ph rises slightly before it gets above 6.5 I knock it back down to near 5.5 and let it go till  close to 6.5 again. to allow the mag to be absorbed. see chart attached. I am told the swing is needed to get access to all minerals.

 

after all I have done I am wondering if they need more nutes they are now 60 days old and pretty good size and roots are huge.

 

if you look at the pdf chart I am at the end of week 4 in veg . but 

 

I am still using nutes from week 1 and not all 75ml of A&B  I been using 50ml A&B to approx 18 gal (rain water @ 50ppm) . and less of the other stuff as well.

 

thanks everyone

 

 

 

 

 

 

ALL MEASUREMENTS ARE BASED ON METRIC LITRE.pdf

[junkman]

here are pics taken now today

 

see filenames for plant id  2 of each plant and 1 of all , all on the same res drip return.

 

NL - Northern Lights 5 X Skunk

SB - Star Bud

TD - Tangerine Dream 

FG- Fools Gold.

 

Thanks again for all the replies

[Willy]

As far as the H&G goes 

 

A&B i use 35ml of both per 5 gals. 

Root Accelerator = 5ml per 5 gal.

2ml of drip clean per 5gal

19 multi-zen per 5gal

 

this has worked great for me and I have some great harvests. of high quality ,, 

my flower room is always @ 1200ppm with a ph of 5.9  

In veg its 400ppm and 6.0 ph

This is the results of usin the above... I measure per 5g so i am exact to what i add to the rez.. 35g rez/controller tank'

 

notice the hand cradling the bud. Not a bad bud. also i use this http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/321470823337?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Willy

[trichcycler]

 fill a gallon container with water, check ph, add those stones to the water till it over flows, check ph today, tonight, and tomorrow morning....please?  report #'s .

 

thanks.

[Indigro]

Hey grass... This is turning into an example of why i dont like responding to these threads. Im sure you can relate.

 

Want to do an experiment? Im pretty sure iv seen these for sale in small bags... 1gal? Its been a while. Lets both pick up a sample bag and do the ph test. Id like to c if it is any different than what i experienced before (its the same stuff byw), and have independent verification by someone i can trust, someone that will also give a truthful response in results. If i recall properly, this is recycled glass that has been heated and air infused... It looks and feels like pumice actually. I was told that they use a calcium carbonate in that process, and my guess it is a combo of this releasing along w some silica, and both are heavily embedded such that u can not rinse it out. I believe the bag even stated something alomg these lines, that one needed to rinse it, i just couldnt rinse it enough to make any observable difference in the ph swing. Id value your results, as my gut tells me this is a sham product that does real harm in the growing community. Maybe i am wrong, would like to test it again.

[trichcycler]

I have some in my barn still, near a full bag. I did that experiment when I was at my wits end a few years ago, my end days of hydro. These stones were the third product sold to me that caused very specific issues for me, all solved by removal of these products from my cycles.

I don't remember the numbers but they were obviously phacking me.

I will play along though for our own piece of mind.

 

Now, I urge op to rid himself of these stones. thank you for your verification!

 

you've inspired a new thread!!!

Edited April 1, 2016 by grassmatch

[Indigro]

Too funny. This whole industry is so full of crap... So much of the products r just junk, and yet we have stores full of it. Used to think that it must just b me, and if they r still selling it, it must'v just been me. Yet i still c products selling that have caused all sorts of problems to multiple growers iv known. That ebb&gro system is another example of a problem waiting to happen, yet it is still being sold and used, though no one i know personally that tried them have ever kept them around,,, yet it is still out there and is selling. I dont think people r very honest about their real results, be it pride or insecurity or whatever.

 

Im heading to the store to reup on items, il pick up a small bag and just check it out again. Just to c if i get the same results.

[trichcycler]

I have rafters with several systems. they all worked well to feed plants. the differences came with ergonomics, personal gardening habits, etc. I ended with flood and drain, several res, several 3x3 trays, pumps, etc. I loved it and had great results. the downsides of course helped me decide on soil, but they were not ebb/flow specific for me. I found the system to make the least water messes, easy to change plants around, work space was optimized res changes were a few valve twists away and I didn't have any ph issues with my spring water/nutrient supply. I hated spring cleaning, I hated the mass cash for the nutrient change outs, mostly I hated power failures and my failure at using any kind of organic feed in any hydroponic system I tried. but I did love flood and drain/ mostly. if organics would have performed to my liking maybe I'd still be there. Once I wet a spot of dirt though, I knew the score and never looked back.....need some dirty trays anyone??