Breeding Chart

[kindfolk]

I am going through old files and pics and found this chart shared with me by shantibaba back in the day

I hope it will give folks aperspective on the difference between breeding and seed making

Im anxious to see responses to this chart :-)

KF

Edited May 14, 2016 by kindfolk

[AbominableDro-Man]

That's pretty neat! It's cool to get it from that perspective. Personally, I gather information much more accurately from graphs such as this I feel. 

[Norby]

Was this to make an IBL of seeds?

 

You can get a good breeding from just crossing a male and female to make an F1 hybrid.  There you generally get the most vigor.  It seems to me, to inbreed that many generations would be to get consistency in a line with all the offspring.  A hybridization event of 2 IBL will/can create a pretty uniform generation which all possess hybrid vigor.  This can also show with crossing 2 f1 hybrids but after that you have to inbreed a while to then fix traits or subsequent generations will show a lot of variance. I've done that before but went thru more than just picking a male and female from 3 cracked seeds.  I'd crack 10 each gen and cross the 2 top males to all the rest of the females and run those lines and decide which was best to go on to the next gen.  I'd give away the other lines and everyone found something they liked probably as much or better than I liked the lines I kept. 

 

To me the most important qualities are strong stems, low leaf count but most important is that people get teh hermies out of their lines by stressing their breeders to see if they switch easily with a missed watering, low nutes, a little light disruption, etc.  Doesn't matter if they keep track of where they even came from as long as they at least test each seed batch for fickleness. I've got just as good seeds from my random crosses as I have from any batch of seeds I've bought.

[trichcycler]

or, one dose of Reverse, and the confusion is gone from the whole line.......saves a ton of time and garden issue. Anything I can do to help work with these small limits is a plus for me.

[kindfolk]

this chart is to give you an idea of how he bred Shark Shock or Great White Shark

it is limited in scope

these breeders have hundreds if not thousands of plants to select from

I agree with Norby in that F1s are usually where the hybrid vigor come in to play

IBLs tend to lose vigor while becoming homogeneous

like for instance the Northern Lights I ran from Sensi wasn't as impressive as the price of it's seedpack would lead one to believe but the seedlings grew like clones with very little variation

but after crossing a male to a cut like Sweet Pink Grapefruit the resulting hybrid was vigorous and you would likely be able to choose a keeper female in 1 or 2 packs of seed

I have made many F1 crosses that were very successful usually using an IBL as the father

and I have also worked a few backcrosses that seemed to lose a litttle bit of vigor by the cubed generation

but were homogeneous

crossing 2 polyhybrids is a crapshoot but often leads to some nic F1 plants to select from

but the F2 generations were all over the place and many a waste of time

closet breeders dont have the selection that the big breeders have so making F1s often gives fantastic plants and the average grower doesn't really need much more than that to find a winner

most of the seed companies are standing on the shoulders of those that came before them and actually put in the time to create IBLs

one thing I can tell you for certain is that genetics cant be factored by numbers and are way to diverse and complicated

look at the breeding we have done with dogs

we choose for traits llike size, color and behavior while not being able to 'see' the resistance to diseases or internal problems

just the same in a closet we select for specific traits but resistence to pests and diseases are not what we are looking for

although I have worked on a few backcrosses I still consider myself a seedmaker and not a breeder

this simple chart is to give folks an idea of what a breeder actually does to create a new P1 generation

Im glad its got folks thinking

and while selfing is agood tool in that in eliminates the resources used to grow males

a selfed bean is not going to be a 'clone' of the mother

Ive seen alot of variation especially with selfed polyhybrids

I've had better luck reversing a plant and crossing it with the other keeper females in my garden

Im anxious to see where this conversation goes as so many 'breeders' out there are really only seedmakers with a big ego

just my .02

KF

[Indigro]

I agree w u kf.

 

I tend to like the pollen chuckers that use original cut only stock for f1 crosses, for the simple reason of finding something new and unique... Pheno hunting. But i dont mind doing the work of selection myself, again, for something that is special and uniquely mine. Just my perspective as a customer

[pergamum362]

Well said kf.

[Norby]

Yep, some people work for a living and some are smart.

 

Personally I don't think I should have to spray reverse on a plant to not get male flowers when i'm paying $10 a seed for regulars.  If I wasn't gathering the genetics and working them myself I don't think I'd buy any seeds at the prices they are offered at and the quality I've got, across the board.  I can't say there is one pack I've got that has been worth the money compared to being able to go to a dispense or genotype and pay less than $50 for single cut I can take home and cut and get endless grows from. TGA and Rare DAnkness both use a few males they cut and run with each cutting they buy, basically they buy their way in.  Am I happy with the crosses I've gathered, more than happy(from the standpoint of gathering some genetics to work with, not specimens and quality of individual seeds).  Would I have been happier if I could've got more than one female(or even 1 female) to work with out of a pack, definitely.  I basically just bred every non hermie I got unless the male looked that bad(sometimes even then because the cross was discontinued).  So now I have everything I need to make endless crosses myself and weed thru to pick out the strong stuff.  I've already had to cull 4 females seeds from teh program as they molded slightly under normal 50% humidity and normal waterings.  One I culled because it hermied the second run thru.  It'll take a LONG time to weed thru the bad genetics because they didn't.  They just stuck with a few males and crossed to every cut(a lot of which were probably fem bagseed and unsteady, esp Arcata trainwreck crosses) that had the advertisement name for them.  Had I known what I was doing compared to what the companies making money were doing in cutting corners, I would've guarded what I had made much much much better and not lost so much hard work.   It's not that I did that much "work" just that there was a lot to go thru to get strong stems, no hermies, no mold, hi test and hi terpene/flavenoid strains.  Guarded as in not let go bad.

 

What confuses me is the use of x amount of dead lines in the chart.  Why show 10 to select from in the f1 and only 4 or 2 or 3 in other generations?  If they used hundreds of cuts why not represent them in the chart?

 

Not to say there aren't artists out there, but most of them are making stuff that is in 45=55%humidity, 70-80f and enhanced co2, etc. Babied.  And they are just choosing for the smoking quality to their and a few others personal preference.  Just look how many are working with CBD and why?  Most just because it's a product people want, they generally don't like or use CBD.  Unless they don't release seeds unless they've been tested for hermie, mold, cold, off fert regimen(any stressors really thet would create mold, hermie, genetic flaws etc. like black cherry soda seems to want to flower after about a year in veg, these things are noted on good seed lines, like certain chard has a tendancy to bolt in certain percentages) then they don't really measure up to any of the vegetable seed companies out there.  Most do their breeding in 70-80f, they pick for certain styles(hydro, soil, synthetic/organic) but don usually list what they choose for and like TGA he grows organic but breeds against any cut which may excel in hydro and not perform the same in organics and soil.  So up till now it's been open to anyone who can get in(knock offs, serious breeders, chuckers with great advertising, etc.) but eventually companies will emerge that do the serious work of testing outside, inside in soil etc. or at least are very specific about what they breed for, outdoor, indoor, greenhouse, heat resistant, cold hardiness, taste, hi THC etc. etc. etc.

 

Personally I don't know enough of the inner working of most seed companies but it seems that there is a long way to go till they achieve even teh smallest of seed producers in their specificity.  And customer service for some shows that there is overpricing and nowhere near enough competition.

 

I consider myself a breeder.  I've bred geckos, lizards, snakes, tarantulas, mantids, all sorts of feeder insects, some springtails and isopods from outdoors(isolating cultures) and had one of the largest frog breeding business in the country.  I've studied evolution and breeding for farm animals, plants, pets, for genetic abnormalities and traits for captivity, etc.   Are teh companies out there sufficient? obviously since the wide array of genetics that we have available, but again, matched against any food seed companies they are playing around.  The cmpetition isn't from good seed.  I don't think any seeds I've gotten weren't over fertilized where the seeds were much smaller than they should've been.  They are more worried about the #'s they get then the amount of starch each seed has to make for a hardy seedling.  Although I've seen the same with the beans and other garden seeds I've produced on my own so that's not an exclusive bad for mj seed breeders.  Just a side effects of money(economy or the like). Gotta maximize profits rather than produce the best product available

Edited May 16, 2016 by Norby

[Norby]

The one IBL I've been trying to get since the cup in 14 here is cherry bomb from MTG.  And it seems that they aren't offering it anymore when they said they'd have more in early 15.  Maybe I just want things that most of society doesn't and my standards are just different, who knows.

[Norby]

or, one dose of Reverse, and the confusion is gone from the whole line.......saves a ton of time and garden issue. Anything I can do to help work with these small limits is a plus for me.

That's not what it says on the bottle.  Are you sure it isn't just coincidence with the few you used it on?  I've had my QE throw late stage flowers nanners when I first ran it but it's since stopped.  And I still let it go all red.

And as i said, for the price of seeds I should nt have to worry about it ruining a whole garden. Sorry if I don't put the confidence in it that you do also. I wouldnt sleep well at nite till I ran it a dozen times.  That's why I culled the gg#4.  After it took out 4 of 12 plants to oil or kief I ripped it immediately.  No plant is worth that if you can run more of your own seeds and get something comparable or better.

 

Ooops, somehow it looked like that was a second reply when I came back to reply again.

 

But after looking back I should quantify I have been quite happy with the different array of flavors, tastes and his I have been able to gather.  If I could only find the true juicy fruit again.  Got the ffruity juice from sensi and it certainly didn't match up to the juicy fruit samples I've got from dispenses here and there.  Maybe I just have to get thru more than 2 females to find one representative of the true juicy fruit gum but although they were nice sativa hi's they didn't have any of the fruity flavors(pretty grassy tasting) and didn't take the ferts well. Good for something just not what I thought it was.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Norby

[trichcycler]

I'll read the bottle this afternoon. Each Tahoe I grew was confused. After I applied Reverse to the line not one confused plant has been born, clone from a clone, and cultures from them too, all come out with giant calyx and no confusions, year after year. Luck? of course its luck, I'm just a caregiver growing great herb is all, I dont know much about sex confusion in plants or Reverse for that matter. What I do see is growers who have troubles with hermies often, often continue to have troubles with them. When I discovered that I searched for a solution the supposed genetic issues, and found it.

 

It should be noted I have had only 2 confused plants since 2009. 2 !  Blueberry and Tahoe. Blueberry wouldnt have made the cut here anyways, never worked to correct her, and that same Tahoe is a star today still.  2 plants from countless Attitude seed breeders from all over the world. I just dont see hermies as an issue for the bulk of growers, but I was scared reading all the forums in 2008 and decided to arm myself, successfully, against the perceived hermie infiltrations. Today most seed makers know better than to flick lights on and off during lights off schedule, and seal up any light leaks. chems are widely available to make pollen now, a luxury that wasnt around just a short time ago. Sticking with solid breeders has served me well, but even the fly by nights have surprised me occasionally.

[trichcycler]

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I hate spraying anything on my plants. After my first application I saw all the confusion dry up, and decided against a second application. I never opened the bottle again, except to gift a squirt to a member last year to prevent their hermies.  If it was important to a grower I'd suggest following directions and applying Reverse one more time than I did. I wouldnt work with unknown genetics without a bottle of the insurance on stand by.

[kindfolk]

 

What confuses me is the use of x amount of dead lines in the chart.  Why show 10 to select from in the f1 and only 4 or 2 or 3 in other generations?  If they used hundreds of cuts why not represent them in the chart?

 

I should have addressed the limited numbers shown on the chart

the chart wouldn't fit on a sheet of paper if it had hundreds of each generation and wouldn't be so easy to understand

this is a simplified example and doesn't encompass the actual nubers that were run to select from

if you have ever seen piccs of shantibabas greenhouses you can see hundreds of flowering seedplants

I would love to have those kind of resources

thanks for the input Norby

KF

[Norby]

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Available in:

1 Litre, 5 Litres

• Male Flowers Causing Headaches & Ruining Your Crop?
• What An Ugly Sight! Every Growers Worst Nightmare!
• Simply Spray Gold Range REVERSE With The Lights On – It’s That Easy!
• No Dilution Required. Ready To Spray – Just Add Gold Range SATURATOR!

You’ve heard the rumours……… Well it’s true! Experience for yourself what “those in the know” have been talking about. Gold Range REVERSE is the latest design in ‘unwanted-flower’ foliar sprays and follows on from our world renown original REVERSE that was designed by our in-house Plant Physiology and Biochemistry scientists.

 

Gold Range REVERSE is a ready to use (no dilution required) foliar spray that quickly and efficiently helps to bring peace to a grower’s worst nightmare…. awful seed problems! The unique formulation enables Gold Range REVERSE to help reduce that headache!

 

Modern science allows Gold Range REVERSE to achieve this remarkable feat by its beneficial effects on the Mesophyll layer of the plant. This layer is responsible for most of a plants energy production (photosynthesis) and more importantly is the starting point of all the metabolic pathways. Simply put, the selected minerals provide your plants with the vigour they need to channel the correct metabolites in the pathways responsible for flowering, helping to correct any imbalances.

 

End result for you when you use Gold Range REVERSE... LESS MALE HEADACHES!

 

Note: Gold Range REVERSE will not turn a male plant into a female plant.

 

USAGE INSTRUCTIONS:

For best results, see our Growers Tips and use the online Nutrient Calculator for an individualized interactive feeding program to suit your needs.

 

To use Gold Range REVERSE, simply follow these easy guidelines!

1. As a preventative aid, spray your plants the first time as required (usually approx 7 days into flower cycle) and once again 10 days later OR can be used at the first sight of trouble by spraying with Gold Range REVERSE immediately and once again 10 days later.
2. DO NOT DILUTE WITH WATER - Pour the amount of Gold Range REVERSE you need into a spray bottle. Typically 500 ml / ½ quart is enough for one application for the average sized garden.
3. * Important * Add Gold Range SATURATOR to undiluted Gold Range REVERSE at the rate of 10 ml / 2 teaspoons per litre / quart only! A 500 ml / ½ quart spray bottle will require 5 ml / 1 teaspoon of Gold Range SATURATOR and a 250 ml / 8 oz spray bottle will require only 2.5 ml / ½ teaspoon of Gold Range SATURATOR.
4. Gently shake the spray bottle with the solution to make sure it is well mixed.
5. * Important * - you must spray the solution within 15 minutes of adding Gold Range SATURATOR!
6. Make sure your lights are a minimum of 24 inches from the tops of your plants then spray your plants until the leaves are evenly coated with the spray solution and a small runoff occurs. MAKE SURE YOU AVOID SPRAYING THE GLOBES / BULBS. You only need to spray the top surface of the leaf because Gold Range SATURATOR will deliver absolutely everything inside the leaf using the top surface only. If you needed to raise your lights to spray, you may lower them back down after 30 minutes, as all the solution will be absorbed into the leaf within this time.

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I hate spraying anything on my plants. After my first application I saw all the confusion dry up, and decided against a second application. I never opened the bottle again, except to gift a squirt to a member last year to prevent their hermies.  If it was important to a grower I'd suggest following directions and applying Reverse one more time than I did. I wouldnt work with unknown genetics without a bottle of the insurance on stand by.

 

Like I said I just toss em, no sense in passing any of those qualities on since I am making seeds.

Actually I used to have light leaks all the time before and no hermies, even in the seeds made from them.  I think the problem is that breeders keep their conditions so "perfect" that they don't even know anymore if those bad qualities are in there.  Plus with epigenetics each breed may be funneling those genetics towards plants that can't handle anything out of the perfect range.  That's how evolution works.  The predators shape the preys genetics.  Without choosing for abnormalities you are weakening the genetic lines.  My theory at least.

[trichcycler]

^that's the reason I'm no breeder...I like perfect conditions, and dont want to experience any genotyped evolution in my cannabis experience . I do chuck pollen here and there, and actually did breed a winning strain. I learned how to use the Punnets Square and arrive exactly where I wanted to. I still grow the same strain, a favorite keeper since finished. I used that Tahoe OG x Medicine Man over and over, ending in perfection

 

Autoflowering, CBD stars.....alot of hemp genes in play these days. hemp is gladly hermaphrodite often, just wait till its grown in place of soy next door.....

Edited May 16, 2016 by grassmatch