Patients :(

[The Digital Nomad]

I keep hearing complaints from new patients - those CGs that offered 'free ounces' to sign up - either could not deliver quality product (thats why its FREE!) or they stopped being reliable (guess they can't grow if they can't pay the bills!)

 

Chose a CG based on his/her quality produce and service. Don't be a sucker for "free".

 

-DN

[tooldini]

Dr bob I definately get worried if something is really really cheap there is a reason and you just explained it Happy and Digital thats the stuff I try and tell people if I get the chance but I think they don't believe me cause FREE is powerfull

[Guest Mr Pepper]

LOL. Is this guy serious?

 

evedentaly its not crazy talk! because i got several replys other than yours and now i have a caregiver and ialready received my qp!!!!!!! and i will get that every 2 months and then if i need extra i can opt n pay small fee for extras!!! so dunno who you learned ur bunny muffin from!!! but ur the 1 thats way off base homey!!!! GET YOUR IN AND OUT RIGHT BEFORE YOU TRY BEING A BIG TIMER

[budpuffer]

i am currently a patient,i was thinking about becoming a CG,,i had a patient come to me after leaving their CG for not giving them free meds and ask me if i would, if i became their CG....they said that they didn't think that it cost any more to run their twelve plants because i was already running lights and such..lol..like their plants wouldn't need nurts,more lights,etc..and i'd make money on the extra...i told them that i had no intention of growing all their twelve plants but would only be growing enough to keep them in meds..i think one free oz at harvest time and a reasonable rate for any more they needed would be the best i could do...then reminded them that their meds wouldn't be available for 4 months..i have since decided that being a patient is just fine for me... and being a CG doesn't sound like all fun and games anymore,that and all the regulation going on now..it just doesn't seem worth it,,zzb

[Dr. Bob]

Being a caregiver is hard work. The problem with that system is caregivers that want to be commercial growers under the guise of the MMMA. Had one come to me the other day. 'My parents have conditions but don't want to use MJ, since they qualify would your certify them so I can get their 24 plants?'. What part of he'll no don't you understand? Grow enough to keep your patients in meds and a little extra (better to have a little more on hand than not enough) and keep in your limits. Build numbers. Build political power.

 

Dr. Bob

[itsmeang29]

i get 2 oz beinging of every month ok and at the end of every other month i give my caregiver any donations that i can which usually will be at most 200 and whats left after i get my meds he supplies others with whats left ande those patients r where he makes the cash to pay for all the supplies to grow for me i said i dont mind paying a little donation here n there but most caregivers wanna charge street prices to us patients that really need it and they just worried bout gettin money instead of caring for theyre patients which are suppose to come firsy i dont expect anything for free just not to rip our heads off in prices thats all folks not trying offend anyone

 

 

[LansingAreaCaregiver]

i get 2 oz beinging of every month ok and at the end of every other month i give my caregiver any donations that i can which usually will be at most 200 and whats left after i get my meds he supplies others with whats left ande those patients r where he makes the cash to pay for all the supplies to grow for me i said i dont mind paying a little donation here n there but most caregivers wanna charge street prices to us patients that really need it and they just worried bout gettin money instead of caring for theyre patients which are suppose to come firsy i dont expect anything for free just not to rip our heads off in prices thats all folks not trying offend anyone

 

 

 

So in other words, your caregiver passes along YOUR costs to other patients. You aren't getting 'free' meds. Other patients are paying your tab.

[Dr. Bob]

i get 2 oz beinging of every month ok and at the end of every other month i give my caregiver any donations that i can which usually will be at most 200 and whats left after i get my meds he supplies others with whats left ande those patients r where he makes the cash to pay for all the supplies to grow for me i said i dont mind paying a little donation here n there but most caregivers wanna charge street prices to us patients that really need it and they just worried bout gettin money instead of caring for theyre patients which are suppose to come firsy i dont expect anything for free just not to rip our heads off in prices thats all folks not trying offend anyone

 

You have a right to ask your caregiver for a breakdown of the price- how much did it cost to grow and how much is he charging to grow it. But to expect him to illegally sell any excess to others to cover the cost of your meds encourages the black market. Pay for your medications just like you pay for your gasoline and other items you need. This is the same as expecting 10 cent a gallon gas and telling your caregiver to sell any more he has on the street corner for 5 bucks a gallon.

 

Furthermore, if your caregiver is a commercial grower that is willing to pay you in free meds just so he can grow another 12 plants, and you agree to it, you are just as criminally liable as he is. Soon LEO will pick up on that and start charging patients. Be part of the solution, not the problem. This is not an issue of a caregiver trying to help another patient with a little excess, nor is it a debate on the right of a caregiver to sell a little excess. It is an issue of someone hiding behind the MMMA to engage in the distribution of a schedule one controlled substance as a commercial grower.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

You want fair pricing and something that is bullet proof legally? Consider this situation.

 

5 patients pool their money to get a grow facility. They agree to provide all supplies, etc associated with growing their medication and also agree to purchase all medication grown. They then hire a professional caregiver, to be paid per gram produced. The only expense the caregiver gets is a labor fee per gram. They put orders in based on their needs and the caregiver is responsible to meet those orders and have meds available.

 

Each of the 5 patients can be a caregiver themselves for up to 5 more patients, but they themselves are patients of the hired caregiver. Having agreed to purchase all meds produced, they in turn can pass some of those meds down to their own patients. Production costs are fully documented per gram, the labor costs are documented by contract with the top caregiver, a small storage and transfer fee can be charged to the 25 patients under the 5 main patients. Everything appears to be legal. All transfers are from caregiver to designated patient. All prices are based on fully documented and agreed upon costs.

 

To me this is the best structure for a collective. You can even zone them. I would welcome comments.

 

Dr. Bob

 

copyright Robert Townsend, DO

been thinking about this a long time (and considering releasing it to the general board), don't want someone else taking the concept and trying to make money off it at the expense of patients.

[Dr. Bob]

The basic business concept is

 

(terms- caregiver is the hired caregiver for the original 5 patients, each of those 5 patients is caregiver for 5 more secondary patients).

 

1. The professional caregiver- earns per gram produced. Growing is one aspect of the job, managing the plants and matching it to needed output is the second aspect.

2. The property owner- earns lease or rental fees on the facility, does not need to be a patient or caregiver, is just a landlord.

3. Lease or purchase of grow equipment/nutrients, etc.- grow shop associated with property or outside property (may even be owned by a patient)

4. Transfer of processed meds from the original patients to the secondary patients they are caregiver for. If meds are transferred in a raw, partially trimmed state, they can be further processed for the secondary patients with labor costs associated for example.

5. Eventual spin off of the operation with patients under the secondary patients. As each of the original 5 patients needs to start growing meds to supply their patients beyond the capacity of the original grow/professional caregiver.

 

Dr. Bob

[Shredder]

A couple of points, one, marijuana is not all the same. Some of what caregivers grow should be thrown away not even given for free. Patients do not need chemicals in their meds, but a lot of so called medical MJ is riddled with pesticides. Look at what growers are using for pest control, are they using avid, floramite? This could cause health problems for patients. So you really need to take into account quality. So is a free oz worth potentially health problems? I think you would be better served to find high quality meds that you want and that helps your condition, then go from there on pricing, but make quality the bottom line in any deals. And really pricing is between those involved, that is where the rubber meets the road, not us here.

 

Second point, a patient has options. You don't have to purchase exclusively from your caregiver. If your caregiver is not meeting your expectations, look around. Let him/her know that your unhappy, but give them some time to correct the problem. Maybe you just require a different strain, but work with your caregiver, don't trash him/her in public or private. In the end you very well could look like a poor candidate for a caregiver. i know some that have gone through multiple caregivers and now are stuck with no one wanting to take on all the hassles regardless of the lure of another 12 plants.

 

Last point, caregivers sometimes have expectations that just are not doable. It is tough to make a living by growing MJ. Thinking you can, then failing, gives you a bad rep in the community. Your better off to grow for yourself, until you can consistently bring in over your 2.5 in high quality meds. If for any reason you can't meet expectations, let your patients know what's up, don't play turtle by being unavailable, communicate. Heck, things happen not all grows are up to par, and if that is the case a patient should understand this is farming, that is part of the game. Perhaps you could even direct your patient to a fellow grower who could help. But not answering the phone signals your not the person for the job...............shredder

[mrd]

Myfirst patient had a fair contract but he reneged on it wanting the mj for free, delivered to his house for (free 50 miles)free.

So what good was the contract? Was I to go to court? C'mon! He is still a jerk who loves whomever tells him he will get free pot. Oh yeah last I heard he has gone through 4 caregivers. I have no problem with anyone donating to him but its an example of the type of thinking that is out there. Oh yeah I offered to help him set up his own grow (for free).

 

This is why when each caregiver takes on a patient they should draw up a contract that both sides feel comfortable with that way things like this are already addressed.

[Dr. Bob]

That is why the caregiver is a 'hired' position and they are paid on performance, they can also be 'fired' by patients. The caregiver is interviewed as to grow techniques, certain parameters like pesticide use can be determined by the contract between the patient and caregiver. So can strains grown, and there is no limitation to any patient getting meds from any source- that hasn't changed at all.

 

As for caregivers, of course there is wastage, same thing can be said of corn or automobiles. So what, that is quality control and a price of your trade. Unlike governments, this is private enterprise and we are paid based on WHAT we do, not HOW LONG it takes to do it. Everyone is a 'master grower'. I've not seen one caregiver advertise their services as a 'so so mediocre' grower. Well, here is your chance to prove it. If you can grow efficiently, keep medication available, and SERVICE your patients with GOOD product (all is subject to acceptance, so the issue of pushing crap meds isn't there- don't meet the standard, it isn't accepted and you dump it in the trash), then your services will be in demand. If not, you can be replaced.

 

While you make a well written and considered response, and a good case for folks going on their own, not all patients can grow. Right now dispensaries may or may not be allowed. The McQueen case was heard by court of appeals yesterday. P2P is also being questioned. The only completely legal and approved by all parties method of getting meds from anyone other than the patient growing their own is via the caregiver/designated patient system. This is a way to use that to increase the availability of meds, assure a legally defensible grow system and pricing scheme, and quite frankly cut the legs out from under those that oppose us.

 

This system is designed specifically to help folks that would otherwise not be able to grow their own meds or don't have the expertise to do it. It also allows off site grows for folks with children, apartment dwellers, even those in 'drug free' zones that don't feel comfortable with a garden in their home. It is a viable alternative to dispensaries (especially if those go away), keeps things mom and pop, and follows sound business practices.

 

Dr. Bob

[Dr. Bob]

Myfirst patient had a fair contract but he reneged on it wanting the mj for free, delivered to his house for (free 50 miles)free.

So what good was the contract? Was I to go to court? C'mon! He is still a jerk who loves whomever tells him he will get free pot. Oh yeah last I heard he has gone through 4 caregivers. I have no problem with anyone donating to him but its an example of the type of thinking that is out there. Oh yeah I offered to help him set up his own grow (for free).

 

Precisely why the patient is responsible for the expense and you are charging for your labor only. No free ride for patients, they own and are responsible for the plants, and have to purchase the quality product you produce. You in turn are responsible for making sure the product is available and is of good quality.

 

As for a contract, like any other it is enforceable in court. The only problem with doing that is if it is underground and no one wants to bring it up. If all parties were legal, and not ashamed of their activities, there is not a problem.

 

Not questioning you, it sounds like you were on the up and up, but there is a basic fear out there of treating this like a legal business based on 80 years of legal harassment. Let's take back the courts and show we are legal business people and citizens and have the same rights as anyone else. Goes a long way to making the production and use of MJ as medicine 'mainstream' again.

 

 

Dr. Bob

[TajMahal]

Myfirst patient had a fair contract but he reneged on it wanting the mj for free, delivered to his house for (free 50 miles)free.

So what good was the contract? Was I to go to court? C'mon! He is still a jerk who loves whomever tells him he will get free pot. Oh yeah last I heard he has gone through 4 caregivers. I have no problem with anyone donating to him but its an example of the type of thinking that is out there. Oh yeah I offered to help him set up his own grow (for free).

 

 

 

True, but at least there is written reference to what was agreed on. Reason for dropping patient to MDCH: no longer agrees to established rules / agreement.

[Dr. Bob]

True, but at least there is written reference to what was agreed on. Reason for dropping patient to MDCH: no longer agrees to established rules / agreement.

 

Good point

[tooldini]

Itsmeang29 your changing your story know that you learned it was illegal what you did. You cleary said NO THANK YOU to me in a PM stating that a patient should never pay for meds and that actually caregivers should pay patients LOL. I never even qoated a price just stated what I was considering. well once you and others like you and their caregivers get in trouble maybe the system can work the way it is supposed to and yes these people will end up in trouble some day. I don't wish it on anyone but it will happen. Ok well done discussing that issue. The point is the system should allow caregivers to receive donations for there time an effort and not promote them selling in grey areas or totally illegal markets. This is what happens when patients are told they should get it free. I tell anyone on here or in person I will be giving a way TONS(not literally) free but will not say guaranteed anything but any patients will be pleasantly surprised every month

Itsmeang29 if you ever need another caregiver please look up me or someone else on here.

[MORE COWBELL]

I guess I am confused about free meds. When I became a patient I knew I had to pay for the marijuana. Why is it now so many new people think they should get it for free? This is crazy and really annoying. Why do they think it should be free? Were in the law does it say all patients shall receive free medication I must have missed this part. I have had to pay for all of mine and then I grew some of my own also. Please someone explain this to me.

 

I have been a grower since 87-88-i know what it takes-the ability to read a book or ten-mostly patience, some luck, the ability to listen, be humble, always learning and think like a plant then give them what they want.

 

i can only use so much and when there are overages they are traded for compensation to other patients as well as clones and seed-also donated to those who do not have meds at the moment

I GET UP TO 4 OUNCES FREE A MONTH if i so choose!

-----my CG does just fine!

and there is plenty to go around too.

 

THIS IS A PATIENTS MOVEMENT!

THERE WOULD NOT BE C.G'S WITHOUT OUR PATIENT LAW

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY

THIS IS ABOUT MEDICINE

THIS IS ABOUT EMPATHY

THIS IS ABOUT INCREASING THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR ALL

THIS IS ABOUT HEALING!

 

GOOD LUCK WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING...because you wont be getting rich anytime soon by following the M.M.M.Act of 2008

[Darkmatter]

Being a caregiver is hard work.

 

Yep. If one is questioning their caregivers prices or their ability to make enough money to keep things going know this: Your average grow room is warm and humid 80 degrees and 50% humidity. Working in one you WILL sweat your donkey off. If your caregiver gives you top quality meds they have put some work into it in the form of labor, investment, study, networking, and time.

[MORE COWBELL]

Any caregiver that would knowingly give a patient a qp is crazy and asking for trouble and they will get it along with the patient. So enjoy your QP while you can, make some tincture,oil,medibles or something to hide it.

 

she never said she possessed it it all at one time-you are allowed to have 2.5 ounces as a patient and your CAREGIVER can hold another 2.5 ounces for you... LEGALLY YOU COULD GAIN ACCESS TO 2.5 OUNCES EVERY MINUTE IF YOU COULD CONSUME THAT MUCH-lets not be ridiculous- this is about providing the best meds as cheaply as possible to as many patients that are in need-if you cannot do it inexpensively, i am sorry to hear that ... you should reconsider your strains and methods and growing under the sun is nearly free!

[tooldini]

they said they received their QP which would mean that they have it. It is not big deal to me just wanted to let them know it was illegal and be careful.I am sure they got that but again no big deal to me just letting them know

[CedarSpringsCG]

True, but at least there is written reference to what was agreed on. Reason for dropping patient to MDCH: no longer agrees to established rules / agreement.

Last time I checked, the change form didn't have a space for "Reason for Change".

 

Get a contract, just so they can't say "You said this, or that". It is all clearly written and signed.

[Nix]

@tooldini

 

You don't need patients like that. Don't even bother wasting your time talking to them. You're much better off without the moochers.

[TajMahal]

Last time I checked, the change form didn't have a space for "Reason for Change".

 

Get a contract, just so they can't say "You said this, or that". It is all clearly written and signed.

 

 

Contract would be good just for that reason!

 

Was thinking of this post about dropping patient........Hopefully it is good information.

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/31918-bad-patients-how-to-remove/page__p__302704#entry302704

[tooldini]

I know Nix I shouldn't let it bother me LOL but for some reason it does. I guess its just because I have always thought I should pay and do. I also grow my own but sometimes I visit a dispensary for a change. I have never been one to think I deserve anything for free regardless of the situation. I have even offered to pay for things that people were giving away because there was a value there I just need to realize there will always be people thinking for some reason they should not pay for things. I also donate hundreds of dollars in clothes every year to needy and donate monthly to humane society and also donate to salvation army. THE I shouldn't have to pay because they make money other ways just does not make any sense to me at all.